It might have taken the entire industry by surprise, but lemonade has proven to be the breakthrough flavor in hard seltzer this year. Spurred by Truly’s success, brands from Bud Light to Corona to even Mike’s Hard Lemonade are jumping on board, giving credence to the idea that lemonade will be a dominant flavor in the drinks world in 2021.

On this week’s episode of the “VinePair Podcast,” Zach Geballe and Adam Teeter talk about why lemonade has struck such a chord with the drinking public, whether the trend will cross over from hard seltzer into cocktails, wine, and beer — and if so, what drinks and styles will be best positioned to capitalize on that demand.

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Adam: From Brooklyn, New York I’m Adam Teeter.

Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the VinePair podcast. Zach man, Super Bowl. You know what’d you drink?

Z: Oh, my God. Well, I’m going to be completely honest and say I watched exactly zero seconds of the Super Bowl.

A: Oh, wow.

Z: Yeah. I will say my approach to the Super Bowl lately when I haven’t had much of a rooting interest is I kind of monitor the score. And then if it seems like it’s a close game, I’ll tune in later. That obviously was not the case this year. So I definitely just was like, “Well, I’m going to do something else with my time.” And I don’t know if I drank during the Super Bowl, but I will tell you the things that I drank lately, and I know you will appreciate this in particular, Adam. So I taught a class on Greek wine this past week.

A: I saw that, yeah.

Z: Yeah. And I know it’s always been a favorite, and I’ve had it before, but I had the Xinomavro from Alpha Estate and I know, not this specific one, but one of their other bottlings was the No. 1 wine of the year for 2020 from VinePair. So definitely a heavy recommendation for me as well. Just love the variety. Love the style and yeah, it was delicious. And we got some Greek takeout. It was delightful. I was a very happy man. How about you?

A: So first of all, I need some more Xinomavro in my life. So if you are a Xinomavro producer and you listen to a podcast or you have access to Xinomavro, I’m happy to send you my and Zach’s addresses. Just email us at podcasts@vinepair.com. So it’s really funny, actually, that you mentioned Xinomavro, because I also had it this weekend, but I had it earlier. I had it on Saturday. And then did the Super Bowl on Sunday. So on Saturday, I think I’ve talked about her before, but Lena is like my wife and my best friend, and she’s Greek and born in Athens. Now, obviously, she lives in the United States. And she took us to this amazing Greek market a few weeks ago in Astoria where like, again, it is amazing, man. Like if you don’t shop at ethnic markets, you got to go. Because first of all, the prices are so much better. It’s funny, they had these amazing phyllo spanakopita and phyllo pastries and things like that, all frozen that you can bake really easily, all made in Greece. And I was talking about how you could buy this at Trader Joe’s, too. But even at Trader Joe’s, where we think of as being super affordable, it’s like $5.99. And this is like $3.99. I got an amazing huge 5-liter jug of amazing olive oil.

Z: Cool.

A: I got all this cool stuff. So I’d gotten some feta and halloumi and things like that. And so I made my version of I don’t know, I mean it’s bad, but I tried, I tried to make souvlaki. And then had Xinomavro, which was delicious. And I had the Alpha Estate one because I just happened to have the second bottle. We sort of all fought over it.

Z: Somehow it ended up in your pile.

A: Yeah. Well, when we did the big tasting and we had the second bottles left over, we all sort of drew straws and I just pulled the like, “I’m taking this one.” But that was really delicious. And then this week for Sunday, I went to the grocery store and I think I saw Industrial Arts Wrench, which was one of our top beers a few years ago. And it’s been a while since I had it. And so I bought a 4-pack of that and I had two of those during the game because it feels like, I don’t know, for me it feels like what you’re supposed to drink is beer.

Z: Yeah.

A: I know that wine is on the upswing and they’re showing every single year, wine eats more and more into beer’s stranglehold of consumption during the Super Bowl. But I forgot how good the beer was. And it’s funny, that that happens so often in beer where just because there’s so much, and as we talked about before, it’s become easier and easier to get these beers. As you know, these breweries are realizing that they have excess capacity and they need to dump on the markets. I just don’t seem to have a go-to anymore. I used to. Like Wrench used to be like, if I saw Wrench, that’s what I grabbed. I think it was like three or four years ago. Now it’s like, “Oh, well, I also see these other amazing breweries and I’m going to get these, too.” So it was cool to have it again and remember that it is so delicious. So that was a lot of fun. But now, you know, taking a dry week.

Z: I have a tangential question for you on this that just occurred to me. So I’m wondering, one thing that I think we’ve seen when we’ve talked about beer and hard seltzer and their overlap and point of comparison is that they are to some extent definitely pulling from some of the same audience. But one thing that we’ve talked about when we’ve talked about seltzer before is a big selling point for seltzer is the mixed case, right? Like people shop for those more than they shop for anything else. I mean, I remember being struck when we were doing some “Next Round” interviews earlier that mixed cases were the things that were flying off store shelves more than anything else. But with the exception of some of the big breweries, like Sam Adams does this, and I’m sure some others where you can buy a mixed case of their beers. I remain surprised that some of these smaller producers are not putting their 4-packs or 6-packs together with two-two-two, or four different beers. Because I think that, like, what you’re talking about had been a thing in craft beer that people had their favorite beer and they just bought that. But I think for so many people and for me especially, a thing that we’re missing in this period of time and making it more difficult to go to taprooms and try things, is that exploration and discovery. And it surprises me that we don’t see more of those mixed packs out in the wild. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe they’re out there and I’m just not seeing them. But it’s something I keep an eye out for when I go to the grocery store or even when I go to the breweries near me. Sometimes if I say, “Hey, can I get four different 16- ounce cans?” They’ll do it. But it’s not always the case that they want to sell stuff individually. And I’m just kind of not sure why.

A: Yeah, actually what you’re saying, I hadn’t thought about but I’m like, “Yeah. Why don’t they do this?” And I get that the 4-pack has become “the thing,” the trendy thing. And I like to have at least two of each beer. Just so if I like it, I would like to return to it and be like, “Oh, I really like this, I’ll have one more.” But I feel like a lot of these breweries should go to that. If they want to keep their big cans, that’s fine. But go to a 6-pack and do two-two-two. And let me have three different variations of your crazy hazies. Or three different variations of your pilsners or whatever. I think that that would make a lot of sense because you’re right. Like that’s why the mixed case does so well with seltzer. I mean, look, everyone says they have a favorite flavor and they drink that first, and then they’re like, “Oh, I got like so many black cherries that just sit in the back of the refrigerator.” But for the most part, the other reason that it’s successful is because the hard seltzer producers know that people are usually consuming these with other friends. And so, you have flavor options for people. As opposed to being like, “I like grapefruit, so I’m going to buy a case of grapefruit.” And then my friends come over and they’re like, “Oh, I’m really a cherry drinker or black cherry or whatever or blackberry.” And then all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, sorry, dude, I don’t have that flavor for you.” So yeah, I wonder if that would be smart. Because early days craft beer you saw that a lot. The big craft breweries would do these mixed cases. I remember always getting the SweetWater one that had like three of their classic IPA, three of their 420, three of their Sweetwater Blue, and I think three of their Brown Ale. Right? And it was great because you got to know the brewery across the board, whereas now I feel like people get stuck on one style. But I also think a lot of breweries are mostly doing one style. At least a lot of them are, right? They’ll try to do other things, but they’re really known for one thing, where I don’t know anyone that knows Other Half for anything other than hazy IPAs. I know they do other beers, but like that’s what they’re known for. That’s definitely very different than what it used to be in the early days of craft beer. for sure.

Z: True. Where yeah, you just had fewer breweries. So they kind of all felt compelled to make a range of beers. And if you wanted a craft beer or a craft pilsner, you were likely to get it from the same brewery.

A: Exactly.

Z: As opposed to now where you might have a favorite craft pilsner brewery, and a favorite craft IPA brewery, and a favorite craft dark beer brewery, whatever. Right? Like there’s all these different things. So I think it would be an interesting experiment. There’s probably reasons that are good. And if you listeners have them, send us an email (podcast@vinepair.com). Let us know why your brewery still likes to put six or four cans together of the same beer and sell them that way.

A: Yeah. So Zach, man, we’re having a fun conversation today and that conversation is about lemon.

Z: Yeah, we’re going to take lemons and make a podcast out of them.

A: So if you read the site, you know that we’ve talked a lot about lemon in the recent past. And lemon is a flavor and lemon is the big flavor that we’re going to see this summer and probably well past the summer and basically primarily in seltzer. But I wanted to have this conversation because I’m curious to think through where this could take us just in other drinks, like how does lemon potentially translate into wine?

How does lemon translate into other cocktails? In the search aisles of beer. So to lay our conversation for us, a year ago or so, Truly hard seltzer decided to come out with a Truly hard lemonade seltzer. So still seltzer. I think that a lot of people like in the drinks business were like, “Haha, that’s so ridiculous. Like Truly is going full-circle, like from being the head seltzer to basically ripping off Mike’s hard lemonade, which makes White Claw.” You know, like insider people thought it was really funny, like what is Truly doing? And they debuted this seltzer lemonade, and it just exploded from the get. And it quickly became one of their top-selling SKUs. I think now it may be more successful than even their traditional Truly variety pack. Lots of flavors of lemonade. Right? But always with lemon as the core background. And now you see everyone else fast following. Bud Light is coming out with lemonade-flavored seltzers. White Claw is doing its own. Mike’s Hard Lemonade is about to come out with a Mike’s Hard Lemonade Seltzer. Corona, everyone is following lemonade. And so we started looking at this and realizing, maybe there is something here. When you look at all the data, it’s very clear. Out of citrus flavors, lemon, among Americans, is the most popular flavor. Right? And the seltzers have keyed in on this. Now, maybe seltzer and lemonade is the perfect pairing. But I think it’s interesting, and I think it’s specifically lemonade, right? That this sort of “lemonade flavor” has come out of nowhere and is all of a sudden — or maybe didn’t come out of nowhere, but all of a sudden going to be pretty ubiquitous. So, look, I mean, we’re going to start to see lemonade hard seltzers all over the place. We already are seeing them. Lemonade is becoming this thing that has gone from what we think that kids drink at their lemonade stand to now a flavor that adults are across the board embracing. And I’m curious, like, where we think this is coming from? And how we think this is going to impact the wider world of drinks.

Z: So as far as the question of where it’s coming from, I mean, allow me to do some very amateur psychology here.

A: Yes.

Z: I think one thing that we’ve talked about a lot since the start of the Covid pandemic is how much our emotions play into what we want to drink. And I think we talked a lot last year about how things like tropical ingredients, lime, that kind of stuff, was going to be really appealing to people because it was going to be this year where it was summer and it was nice out and yet people were not necessarily just trapped at home. I mean, they were able to be outside. But travel was not an option for most people. There was a lot of this desire and longing to travel virtually. I think what’s different about coming into 2021 from 2020 is that we are for one much further into the pandemic. And I think what people want, and maybe projecting forward what they’re going to want, are flavors and experiences that feel like a return to normal. And that’s not to say that by summer things will have returned to normal. But I think in some ways the longing for lemonade is really about, as you said, the childhood innocence of the lemonade stand, the flavor that goes with it, the comfort and the familiarity. And the fact that lemon, even more than lime or orange or grapefruit is such a versatile, and at times can be almost the ideal background singer, but it can also take the lead. And I think that that to me makes a ton of sense as people are going to be still in this weird sort of not-totally-back-to-normal state. But people are going to want that comfort and familiarity that I think lemon provides, that even something that we consume lots of as Americans like orange or lime just can’t.

A: Yeah, actually, I think that’s really insightful.

Z: Thank you.

A: I feel like yeah, there is this desire to sort of return to childhood. And it’s interesting, what is it about lemon that is so much more desirable to consumers than lime, orange, etc.? So when we started investigating this, we started looking at trends, data, and things like that. And when you look at just the flavor as a whole and people’s interest in it, the search volume for lemon and lemon-flavored things is off the charts compared to grapefruit, orange, lime. And that was surprising to me, especially because lime is the key ingredient in the most popular cocktail in America: the Margarita. So I would have thought that lime and lemon would have kind of gone hand-in-hand and that maybe we were just having a lemon moment. But for years now, lemon has been — and lemonade, specifically — has been this thing that we’re really highly interested in. So it’s crazy to me that this didn’t happen sooner in seltzer, because I love sparkling water and lemon.

Z: Yeah.

A: So it’s very interesting that, yeah, this has now been this thing that Truly did and everyone thought they were crazy, and now everyone’s following. And so now I’m really curious, if this is what we’re going to start drinking a lot of, or a lot of people are going to start drinking. What are the easy sort of transition beverages from seltzer that’s lemon-flavored to X cocktail or X wine?

Z: Well, I think that the most obvious one for me as a start of a transition cocktail is the French 75. So to me, there you have a lot of the components that people love in a lemonade seltzer, i.e., lemon, sparkling. It’s got booze in it. It can be made a little bit sweet, but it’s going to feel like a fancier drink. It’s got sparkling wine in it instead of sparkling water, it’s got gin in it. So it’s got a little bit of an additional dimension in terms of flavor. But it is also a great cocktail in that, a little bit like a Mimosa, you can kind of go to whatever ratio you prefer. It’s a really flexible cocktail in terms of the ingredient proportions. You know, some cocktails, especially citrus-based cocktails, can kind of get out of whack if you’re not careful. And obviously, the French 75 can go wrong, but if you want to even make it with some sparkling water as well so it’s not quite as boozy, because obviously with gin and sparkling wine, it’s going to pack more punch than the equivalent volume of lemonade seltzer would. But that, to me, is just a no-brainer. I also wonder, and here’s a cocktail that I kind of love that, my God, I get s*** for saying I enjoy it. But, you know, what’s a really good cocktail when it’s well-made?

A: What?

Z: A motherf****** Lemon Drop. And like, because it does the exact same kinds of things, right? It’s got that beautiful tartness if you make it with fresh lemon juice, it’s got some sweetness to it. I personally don’t go for the sugared rim, but I get why people do. You know it’s vodka. So it’s a nice kind of clean cocktail. It’s just such a straightforward but delicious drink because fundamentally, and this is the point in some way, right? Like lemon plus a little bit alcohol or a lot of alcohol depending, plus a little sugar, plus water — whether sparkling or not — that is just an outright delicious flavor combo and doesn’t matter how dated that cocktail is. I still kind of like it.

A: Do you think that that’s a cocktail that’s kind of just hurt by its name?

Z: Probably.

A: Like I often wonder. I think the reason that people also love these lemonade seltzers and we’re not all running to Mike’s hard lemonade is Mike’s hard lemonade we kind of all remember as that really sickly sweet kind of almost like Country Time lemonade. You remember the Country Time mix?

Z: Yeah.

A: That like we liked as kids but like, we don’t want to drink something that sweet as an adult. But we still like the lemon flavor. And that’s why I wonder if the lemon drop kind of suffers from just thinking that it’s going to be that sweet lemon candy. As opposed to a squeeze of citrus in a glass of sparkling water, which I think is interesting. And I’ve wondered a lot about what those cocktails could be. I do wonder, too, if it’s just as you said, I wonder if — yes, I know it’s made with lime — but I wonder if you will see some version of a lemon Gimlet.

Z: Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think to me the thing that’s interesting here is, one, you’re totally right that the name hurts the Lemon Drop. If it was just the lemon Martini, people would probably order it a lot more often. And I also think that that you’re right that maybe some of this could either spill over into or could be kind of co-opted. I mean, I don’t think there’s any reason you couldn’t make essentially a Gimlet with lemon juice. It would taste a little different, but still, I’m sure, be delicious. I also wonder, Adam, and I’m curious about your thoughts on this. You know, one of the other areas that I think about lemonade in cocktails is like the well, what I always called the John Daly, essentially an Arnold Palmer, so iced tea, lemonade, and then with booze. And that was a huge — we had a big craze in the restaurant industry a decade ago for that. Like that was a cocktail. There were sweet tea vodkas everywhere. And like that and lemonade was for a summer our best- selling cocktail. Which was great because it was super good for costs. It was not an expensive drink to make. But do you think that is also something that we’re going to see a lot of in this year?

A: You mean just like spiked lemonade?

Z: Well, but I mean that combination with iced tea.

A: I think yeah. So that’s the other thing that you’re starting to see now is that I think a bunch of people are putting out these hard seltzer teas. It’s funny, everything is seltzer. But also everything is like what it already was. But yeah, I mean, Twisted Tea that also Boston Beer Co. owns. I think you’ll see some sort of version of an Arnold Palmer for sure. I think that that’s, again, it’s sort of that savory, sweet, refreshing flavor that we love in the summer. But honestly, all times of year that we’re kind of just giving an adult version to.

Z: For sure.

A: Which then I wonder, so like for me, then where else do we go from here? Are there wines that for people who are enjoying these seltzers will be translatable? Like is a Pinot Grigio going to be something people look for? Because I feel like Pinot Grigio has a lot of that lemon component. Or is it like a Pinot Grigio Spritz, where you actually have Pinot Grigio mixed with sparkling water?

Z: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I mean, I think that one area that we might see some of this translated into so when it comes to wine. I think it could be a good thing for something like Pinot Grigio, maybe. I think of Chablis, or a really kind of stainless-steel-fermented Chardonnay as being an area of wine where you do get a lot of citrus notes. I also wonder, a category that I think could do really well is sangria, like white sangrias, and maybe wine-based punches. That kind of thing feels like you can put beautiful lemon in the drink. It looks cool if we’re doing semi-back-to-normal outdoor gatherings. I feel like we’re going to see a big summer for things that feel festive. Right? Like we can actually see our families again safely, maybe because everyone is vaccinated, hopefully. And like, that’s the kind of thing to me, because it’s not just the accessibility of lemonade and lemon flavor that is going to drive so much of its popularity, although it’s also that. But it’s also like, it’s widely available and it does just sort of play with so many different flavors. I don’t know that I would say, like, here’s a wine that is really lemony. I mean, there are certainly some out there. I’ll continue to think about this. But definitely like things that incorporate wine and lemon, I think it will definitely be big.

A: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I just think, we all need to keep our eyes on lemon.

Z: Well my big question is, are we finally going to get past the issue people had with putting lemon wedges in their beer? Because my wife and I have had arguments about this. My wife has finally admitted that she was influenced by big beer’s advertising that you don’t put fruit in beer. I think fruit in a wheat beer is fantastic and is like the point of it. And I think we’re going to see some wheat beers, hefeweizen, etc. that desperately need that squeeze of lemon, or that lemon wheel or whatever in them. And I don’t know, maybe I’m on my own here. What do you think, Adam?

A: I think you will see some people. But again, I think it will only be, maybe the really light shandies.

Z: That’s another good one, yeah.

A: Yeah. I think the thing that we all need to also recognize about why lemon is taking off in the way that it is, is that these seltzers are all really light. So I’m not telling people to run out and make their own version of Mike’s Hard Lemonade. While that is still a successful brand, I think the reason we’re seeing success is because it is more of a lemon flavor that is similar to a bottle of Pellegrino with lemon in it. And maybe obviously a little sweetener, than something that tastes syrupy or heavy. And I do wonder if that is a problem for the beer and that some of those beers could still taste heavy to people. But I think you will see some of it, though. I mean, I think Narragansett has a really successful lemon shandy. And that potentially will do even better this summer. Again, there have been brands that have had these lemon flavors. So it’s been there. It’s just like you’re watching everyone with the seltzer craze rush in. In a way that you haven’t seen one flavor really dominate in a long time.

Z: And I wonder — my last thought on this, and I’m curious about your take, Adam — I look at this and I look at this especially in the kind of pivot to something like outright lemonade as opposed to like lemon flavor. Right? As like also this interesting potential evolution point in seltzer, where something we discussed when we did an episode about seltzer with Erica last year is, at some point the seltzer market is going to grow to a point where it starts to fracture or bifurcate or something, and some people are going to go in the direction of: What we really like about this beverage is it’s relatively light. It’s carbonated. It’s very easy to transport, and store, and all that, and consume. And maybe we’re not as deeply concerned about whether it’s 70 calories or 90 calories or 110 calories. And we care more about the flavors. And that might lead you to some of these lemonade flavors where, if it’s going to be a little bit sweet, it’s probably going to have a higher calorie count than one that isn’t. And obviously there’s still going to be a big part of the market that’s really interested in lowest calorie possible, all about the sort of, whatever, “clean drinking” something or other. And I see this as being an example where one path for this is to make a thing taste reasonably like lemonade, you’ve got to put some sugar in it. It’s kind of unavoidable. And do you see this as being a sign of this fracturing?

A: I do, actually, I do. Because it’s like it’s going to be one or the other. You know what I mean? I think you’re completely right here.

Z: Because I did an interview for “Next Round” with a couple of women who are putting out a tequila-based, sort of bottled sparkling cocktail with fruit juice in it. And like we didn’t talk about specific calorie counts. I know they’re kind of concerned with cleanliness generally or pure ingredients, things like that. But I think that’s a drink to me where you look at that and you go, the person buying that cares about how many calories are in their drink, but they’re not making their decision based solely on that. They’re obviously going to be influenced by presumably more intense flavor, or superior flavor or however you want to think about that. And I think that the race in hard seltzer for a while was how do we get to a really low calorie count? How do we splash that on the label? And that was the initial audience for that. But as it’s grown and grown and expanded to people who, maybe like me, are not deeply cautious or concerned about the exact calorie count — I mean, obviously not. If you look at what I tend to drink, then what matters is more the flavoring. Yeah, I don’t want it to be syrupy, but I might want my lemonade hard seltzer to taste like lemonade to some extent and not essence of lemon with some booze.

A: So I do think that there is going to be some of that, but the market’s going to be nowhere as big.

Z: Yeah.

A: I think what is driving this entire movement, and the lemon movement for the refreshment in general, is the calories. And I think there will be a niche for some of these other products. I think I know which one you’re talking about. And yes, there will be a health-halo niche. I guess that’s what we’re saying. Right? There’ll be other health-halo products people like, but those people will never see the kind of sales that these other products are seeing. Because also, and this is where it gets interesting, the people who are purchasing these products for calories, you’ve talked about this before, right? They’re not purchasing them to drink one. They’re purchasing to be able to drink six or seven on a Saturday afternoon and not have guilt because they only consumed 600 or 700 calories.

Z: That’s a good point.

A: Right? And so that’s the difference. And that’s what’s driving these mixed-case packs as you talked about the beginning of the show. Those big mixed-case packs get finished in one sitting.

Z: Yeah.

A: Now it’s a group of friends. It’s not one person, but they’re drinking through them, and they’re only consuming 250 to 300 calories.

Z: That’s a good point.

A: And I always forget what the calorie count for an IPA is, but it’s a lot more.

Z: It’s 200 to 300 calories usually for a 12-ounce.

A: Right. And they have three. So that’s what is happening here. And the people driving it, which I think is so interesting, is such a mix. It’s young college-age kids who this is what they’re drinking. We talked about having a conversation about this down the road. But this is what they’re drinking instead of light beer. It’s people who are really sort of focused on exercise, who want to be able to go drinking with their friends but don’t want to ruin the Peloton ride they took that morning. So they don’t want to sort of say, like, “I don’t want to regret it.” They don’t want to just fill in those calories. They want to have still burned more. It’s a lot, which is really interesting, of late-30s and 40s-aged individuals, men and women, right? So this is not a category that is being driven just by one gender, again for the same reason. As you get older, it becomes harder to burn calories. But you still want to be able to, you know, “40 is the new 30. 30 is the new 20.” You still want to be able to hang out like you used to. And so people are looking for these low-calorie options. And I think, again, that’s where you will achieve scale. Now, that’s not going to be important for everyone, right? Not every business wants to be a multi, multibillion dollar business. Some people are very happy being a multimillion dollar business. And some of these other interesting brands will be that. But they won’t be the ones that I think would ultimately then be something that like an ABI or a Constellation or whatever is looking for for acquisition. They’re looking for these mass brands that are just seeing incredible depletions. So, you know, who knows? But the whole lemon and low-calorie thing, man, it seems like it’s going to be everywhere this summer. So let’s get ready for it.

Z: Yeah, I’m going to start polishing up my Lemon Drop recipe, I guess.

A: Dude share it with me.

Z: I will. It’s very simple. It’s just tasty. That’s all.

A: Cool. All right, dude. Well, I will talk to you next week when we’re going to have a conversation about some TikTok drinks trends.

Z: Man, your favorite frickin’ gab topic to discuss. TikTok, I cannot escape it with you.

A: I know. I know. So I’ll see you right back here next week.

Z: Sounds great.

Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair Podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now for the credits. VinePair is produced by myself and Zach Geballe. It is also mixed and edited by him. Yeah, Zach, we know you do a lot. I’d also like to thank the entire VinePair team, including my co-founder, Josh, and our associate editor, Cat. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.