In any other year, the coming of fall might prompt bars to start making some changes: Replacing some tequila and rum cocktails with an extra whiskey or Cognac drink, making sure that they’re fully staffed for college football Saturdays and NFL Sundays, and otherwise preparing for a different, but still successful, season from summer. This year, however, bars and restaurants that have managed to survive the Covid-19 crisis — thanks in part to expanded outdoor seating capacity — will no longer have that lifeline.

What bars will do to survive the season is a concern among drinks professionals and enthusiasts nationwide. Can bars and restaurants expand delivery and takeout options through the fall? Will screening football games outside convince fans to come out and buy some beers while braving the outdoors? Should these businesses all buy a bunch of heat lamps and hope for the best? That’s what Adam, Erica, and Zach discuss on this week’s episode of the VinePair Podcast — now recommended by The New York Times.

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Adam: From Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter.

Erica: From Connecticut, I’m Erica Duecy.

Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the VinePair Podcast. I’m back from vacation! You guys did an OK job last week, but I’m glad to be back holding it down as the third. I know the listeners missed me. You guys, it’s OK, I’m back. You’re welcome. I know you guys missed me, right?

Z: We need The New York Times approved-formula, so yes.

E: Yes, exactly.

A: For those that did not already see the paper of record, we were listed as one of the seven podcasts that you need to listen to if you’re interested in the world of drinks. It would have been cooler if they said we were the only. Just kidding, I like the other six, too. It was a run yesterday and it’ll be in print on Sunday. Before we jump into everything, a word from this week’s sponsor. Everyone, this is your last chance to enter to win a $1,000 cash stipend and all you have to do is make a Cognac cocktail. Cognac USA, Speedrack, and VinePair are thrilled to offer 10 $1,000 cash stipend prizes exclusively for bartenders. All you have to do — and I know there are bartenders that listen to this, so this is all you have to do — you have to enter by simply creating an original Cognac cocktail, then you visit cognacconnection.com, again that’s cognacconnection.com, for the details and to enter your cocktail recipe. Then, we are going to pick 10 recipes, and some people are going to win. It’s super easy, the deadline Sept. 7. Get it in. Enter your cocktail. Zach, tell your people. Erica, tell your people. Let’s make awesome Cognac cocktails. Let’s change people’s perception when it comes to Cognac. It’s delicious in cocktails, everybody knows this, or everyone should know this. So if you have a great Cognac cocktail just make it and then enter it at cognacconnection.com. And with that, what’s going on?

E: I will say that my favorite part of The New York Times article was the recognition that we have “enjoyably strong opinions.”

Z: I’m going to make an enjoyably strong Cognac cocktail.

A: Cognac cocktails are delicious. First of all, I think I did a really awesome riff on that ad read. I just want you guys to know I’m very pleased with myself on this one. I think Cognac is delicious in cocktails. It’s an often forgotten spirit for a lot of people, although it’s having a massive resurgence; the amount of people consuming Cognac in quarantine is insane. If you look at any of the Neilsen data it’s incredible what is happening there. People love Cognac, and you should be drinking it in cocktails. And if you want to make cocktails you should as well.

Z: I told this to Erica and she told me all she wants is a snifter of Cognac by the fire.

E: I drink it straight. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a Sidecar. I like a Vieux-Carré. There’s a lot of good cocktails out there, but I’m a purist when it comes to Cognac, Armagnac, or Calvados. Those are my savoring spirits. Those are the ones I like plain.

A: I like them plain as well. I like sipping them. There’s something that feels very refined about it, you feel like a real adult. If that makes sense?

E: It kind of does. It feels contemplative.

Z: I can’t tell if it feels more like I’m an adult or more like I’m a plutocrat, which isn’t necessarily something I’m going for.

A: I think you’d make a good plutocrat.

Z: Well, I’m going to move on because I don’t want to know why that is.

A: So anyway, how was your week with a break from me? Was it good? Did you enjoy it? Were you like, “Let’s not tell Adam we’re recording today?”

E: I have to say we missed the dynamic of the three. I do think that three is the perfect formula in this particular cocktail.

Z: Equal parts Erica?

E: Equal parts, although I will say there is occasionally a dominant flavor.

A: You’re talking about Zach right?

Z: That’s just because I edit them this way. I guess we’re like a Negroni I suppose. That’s a good way to describe us.

A: The way a classic Negroni should be made.

Z: This raises the question: Who is the Campari, who is the gin, and who is the vermouth?

E: I call the Campari.

A: Fine, then I’m gin.

Z: Alright I’ll be the vermouth, that’s fine.

A: I don’t think that suits your personality though.

Z: You have lots of opinions about my personality. What am I then? Am I like amaro, are we going with a dark Negroni here?

A: You’re amaro, that works.

E: That does work.

Z: Alright.

A: You know where I got to go to on vacation, on our way back from Virginia we stopped in Lancaster, which we wrote about recently. I went to Luca and they have one of the best amaro lists on the East Coast and I have to say, it was awesome. It felt really good to support another restaurant that we’ve written about before. It was also really cool to finally see in person this list. It was super deep, really geeky, it was really cool. Lancaster is a million-in-population city in Pennsylvania but it’s not like San Francisco, L.A., or New York where amaro has become super geeky and people are really into it. And I asked if people were into the list and how often they order it and he said all the time. Once they interested people to it then they wanted to come back and explore, which I thought was really cool. And it was a testament to that if you do things and you educate the guests about what it is on the list, and why they should be potentially interested in it in an accessible way, and you make it feel fun for them, then they’ll come back and keep ordering it and trying it, because you didn’t make it feel intimidating. They’re very cool, and I thought it was an awesome list.

Z: That’s awesome.

E: What was the scene like there? Was it indoor and outdoor dining, or just outdoor?

A: So it was really interesting because I’m used to only dining in New York — I don’t know, Erica, if it’s different in Jersey, and Zach you have to tell us what it’s like in Seattle — in New York, it’s just outdoor, so you make a reservation, and you sit down. In Pennsylvania, you make the reservation, then you have to text them when you get there, and you have to sit in your car with your party. And I thought this might have just been a Luca thing, but then my mother-in-law was telling me that it is at a lot of restaurants in the area. So they text you when your table’s ready and we wanted to be outside — they do have indoor but we did not want to be indoor. I think New York has made me feel like indoor isn’t OK, even though I know that everyone is doing it, so I was like “we’re outdoor.” So you show up and they take every single person’s temperature and they ask for every single person’s name and phone number. So they’re actually doing contact tracing, which I thought was really interesting and a little weird obviously to do right before you sit down for dinner. But it was actually my father-in-law’s first time dining out since the pandemic, and it made him feel really comfortable. They have it down, they are checking people, and then the tables were really well spaced. Very similar to New York, they let them extend their patios so they had a front patio and tables on the sidewalk and even some in the street. So the city is being very liberal in terms of trying to let restaurants make up as much square footage as possible. They also had very clear call-outs on their menu, which I also hadn’t seen before that said “we really love having you back, we’re really happy to be back. Please understand we are not at full capacity. This is not enough for us to sustain ourselves. Please continue to order takeout when you can.” Which I thought was really a smart move on their part. And they were definitely a skeleton crew, just like everywhere else I’ve been, they’re not at full staff power. The dishes came out slower than they normally would be. We were all OK with it, we understood, and we rolled with it, and it was fine. But you do hear stories about people who weren’t. But then I had a really crazy experience.

E: Do tell.

Z: Tell us, please.

A: The next night I was still in Pennsylvania and one of my good friends, Lenna, is from the area, not from Lancaster and that’s not how we knew her, we met her in New York. But she’s from the area, and her parents own a diner in York, and her uncle owns a really well-known seafood restaurant called Kyma right outside of Lancaster. It’s a really beautiful seafood restaurant, and he has a steakhouse right next door. So they asked if we wanted to go to his restaurant. He loves VinePair, so we went to the restaurant and we sat outside. And this guy shows up in this really nice car. It was a European import, he gets out not wearing a mask, and he goes to the hostess stand and I see him confront the hostess. She’s like, “I’m sorry sir, we can’t seat you unless you’re wearing a mask. It’s not only state policy, it’s our policy.” And he’s like, “I want to speak to the owner. Who’s the owner?” And he sees that next door the steakhouse is named Johnny’s which actually is named after the owner’s father. The owner walks over, Lenna’s uncle, and says, “I’m Johnny.” And he just gets in his face and starts screaming at him like, “How dare you make me wear a mask, this is fascism” It was really crazy to watch. Then when it’s all over, Nick, who’s Lenna’s uncle, comes over to the table, and I asked how often that happens, and he was like, “You’d be shocked.” And I have to say, for everything else that everyone in the industry is going through, the thought that you have to deal with that was just really upsetting. That there’s these people that don’t want to follow the rules and just want to scream in your face and make you feel like a jerk — and then all he did was just get in his car with his passenger who was sitting in the car, almost like they knew this was what was going to happen and drove away. They just came out to yell at somebody about a restriction that they don’t agree with that is keeping everyone safe and is helping keep numbers down and drove away with no intention of probably ever dining there. I almost wonder if they were just driving around looking for a restaurant that looked full, which was packed on a Sunday evening, and were just looking to scream at somebody. And it’s just really f***** up and really upsetting. Which takes us into our conversation about this fall.

E: Oh, the fall.

Z: It’s funny, I was just thinking about how the challenges that we’re going through, and I’m sure we’ll get to this in a moment. For now, we’re in this period of time where things are — even in the case of the restaurant you mentioned, Adam — with things on the menu, it looks vaguely sustainable. You have all this added seating capacity outdoors, you have the ability for people to sprawl into the streets in some cases, but none of this can last, and I think that that screaming match is one piece of the problem. But most of this is that we don’t have a comprehensive plan for restaurants and bars that’s going to work for fall and winter. That’s not going to offer, for most people and places, a lot of options.

E: It’s a situation where it’s like: Yes, it’s raining or snowing. OK, there’s no restaurants then. At least in New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut, where I’ve been all summer, outdoor is the only allowed type of dining; there is no indoor dining. So there’s really just very few options for any kind of restaurant or bar operations to be happening at all once the weather starts to turn.

A: I think it’s going to be really crazy. It’s going to totally depend on what happens as the weather turns and how we’re going to adjust for all these restaurants. I think there has been a much larger growing cry in New York City for there to finally be indoor dining opening up. I think for some restaurants, they’ll have at least some revenue from that, but it’s also not going to be enough. Or we have to lax restrictions on outdoor heating lamps, which I didn’t realize a lot of people have banned because of fire code, which makes sense in a lot of ways. But maybe we need to lax that fire code for now. I’m not educated enough to know how much of a fire risk they are, so I don’t want to sound ignorant by saying, “We need to completely lax that restriction,” if maybe those things always catch on fire, and they’re crazy fire hazards. But if they’re not, and we just have them because they’re a heat-producing source, and it’s just within the code to normally restrict them, we need to make those easy. Because people will sit outside still because they’re eager to be out of their homes in November, or even early December, if there are heat lamps. But they’re not going to if they have to freeze.

Z: And I think the other problem we come across is this unfortunate, really brutal truth, which is the more you make a place comfortable, the more you make it feel more like indoors, the less safe it is from a Covid standpoint. If you put a tarp over some sort of another canopy over the top to keep the rain out, well now you’re not getting the same benefit of airflow that you’re getting outdoors during the summer. You start to put up things to keep wind and even possibly rain out on the sides, again now you’re just putting people in a tent, which isn’t safe. And so heat is a part of it, but the reality is that in most parts of this country, for a good portion of the late fall and winter and early spring, there’s just not going to be a safe way to dine out from a Covid standpoint. Or at least if you do it’s going to have to be at the same low kind of density as is possible in most places where indoor dining is permitted. Again, I think we’re at this point where we’ve bought ourselves some time as an industry with it being summer but I haven’t yet seen an answer, I haven’t yet seen a solution that looks like it will even allow for a lot of the places that are open now to make it through November, December, January, and February without having to shut down.

E: I haven’t seen any updates on bailout money or any other support for restaurants and bars. It just seems to have gotten into the muddy mess of what’s happening with the bigger funding picture. There seem to be no developments at all. We’re just starting to see the next wave of closures coming down the pike as restaurateurs and bars are just realizing: Until there’s a vaccine, there’s probably not going to be many very good options.

A: I think it’s crazy because we don’t have enough in terms of clarity from the government as to what they’re going to do, and I think really the only thing that we can hope for right now is that the government is also going to step up. I know there’s a bunch of people who are starting to make even more noise than they were in the past about getting government assistance and trying to sound the alarm, but I think we need more of that. We need more people being loud about what’s going to happen if we get into fall and a lot of restaurants aren’t able to operate at close to normal capacity. And if that’s the case and aren’t going to get government assistance, we’re going to lose a lot of jobs. And if we lose a lot of jobs, we’re going to have a lot of issues with people being out of work and an economy that isn’t able to bounce back as quickly. That’s what I don’t understand, how we don’t understand that as a country. Part of us getting out of this means that there’s less people unemployed when it all ends. If there are more people unemployed it takes longer for those people. There’s also not going to be all of a sudden ton of people eager to open brand new restaurants: “I’ve had this amazing three-Michelin-star concept I’ve always been dying to open.”

Z: One of the big questions that I have is if we think this next wave of closures is coming or has already begun and will only intensify as the weather worsens — there still will be demand in the general population for some kind of food and drinks that they don’t make it home, and I’m wondering, I don’t know that anyone has a great handle yet on what all that means. We certainly talked about the desire for more accessibility for people to get wine, beer, and spirits direct-to-consumer sent to their house, but I think one of the questions I have is are we going to have a new idea of what food and beverage services in a community? I have a few thoughts of my own, but I’m curious if you guys have any thoughts on that?

A: The thing for me that could be interesting about the fall is I’m really curious to see — first of all, we don’t know what’s happening with sports. Again, what is happening in this country is absolutely despicable in terms of what just happened in Wisconsin. And with the Milwaukee Bucks, when we’re recording this on Thursday, Aug. 27, deciding not to play and the NBA season remaining in don’t, who knows? But all signs do point that we’re going to have football this fall. And we do know that across the board — even though we’ve had NBA, we’ve had Major League Baseball, but I’m going to go on record and say that baseball is super boring. We have Major League Soccer, etc. — those are sports that, for the most part, people really don’t think about gathering together in bars in the same way. I think in certain cities, there’s a little bit of the culture, but in the same way as with football: Both with college, which has three major conferences that are saying they are still going to play, and then the NFL that is saying it is going to play no matter what. It can because it makes so much money, so they will pay the players to convince them to play. That I’m curious about, because I do wonder if we’re going to start to see certain places get creative with how they still broadcast those games. As much as more people are watching sports at home, there is a culture in every city where these sports exist that people like to go to a bar or gastropub for the entire day of Sunday and eat bar food and drink. And you cannot replicate that in the same way at home and I wonder if we’ll start seeing people put projectors outside, trying as best as they can to recreate that in some way to bring people in. That will be very interesting to me.

E: I think we are going to see more of that both at bars with outdoor spaces but also in people’s backyards and parks and so forth. I’ve already seen — and this may just be my friend set, which is the friend set with children — but a lot of people are investing in outdoor projectors that you can project against your wall and have movie screenings and sporting events. We have the US Open coming up, and the Kentucky Derby on Sept. 5. I think these small gatherings at home, and I’m resistant to call them parties, but we had a big conversation about how we were going to cover the Kentucky Derby this year. Were we going to suggest that people have big parties or go to any events? We couldn’t really find any that were happening, and we aren’t comfortable saying to have a party, but we are going to put together something saying how to put together a Kentucky Derby gathering at your house for a small set of friends. Because I think people are looking for entertainment, they want to have reasons to come together, and making Mint Juleps while you watch a horse race is as good as any. And that’s just a tradition we have in this country. So whether it’s the NBA, NFL, golf, or tennis, people have this need of wanting to come together, and that’s not going to stop. So what does that mean? Does it mean it’s happening in yards and parks? Does it mean we’re going to have speakeasy-type gatherings happening at bars that aren’t totally licensed? I don’t know. But I think it’s going to happen, regardless.

Z: There’s no doubt. I think that is a really great point that the desire for congregating around these events is going to be hugely impactful. But I feel like one thing that could be part of this, too — in the same way that Adam was talking about the idea of spending a whole Sunday at a bar watching the games — I’m wondering if that might not be an option, and what if you’re a bar or restaurant that’s like “we’re going to give you three deliveries throughout the day.” One of the big things for me when I do that is that you would get your wings to start and nachos and burger — then you die because that’s a horrible day of dining, but I was 23. I feel like finding ways to figure offerings and beverage offerings around what people are already doing could relocate to your house. I’m thinking out loud here, so I apologize, but I think part of it is finding ways that we can deal with unusual circumstances with a little bit of normalcy would be a really good business idea.

A: I think so. Trying to figure out as best you can how you make it feel normal for people is really big. And people figured this out this summer, too. I think we thought, what is the summer going to be like, is it going to be the same? And I think for a lot of people it felt like summer. It hasn’t felt like the summer of 2019 or the term summer prior to that but it still felt like summer and I think it will still feel like fall if people get creative. You know how I feel about this, even though Keith (for those that listen to the Wine 101 podcast) defamed me this week. I do not like pumpkin spice, even though he said I did; pumpkin spice is going to continue to come out. People are still going to start playing with fall flavors. We’re all going to start drinking cocktails that have whiskey and Cognac and things like that. That’s going to happen again just like it happened in the summer. I think I feel more confident about that than I did three months ago because we hadn’t had a transition from Covid into a new season. We all went into Covid in this weird winter-ish spring-ish lull and all we did was pantry-load and bake sourdough and put on the Covid-19 and stock up on as much alcohol as possible. But then we transitioned into summer and it started to feel like summer and I think the same is going to happen in fall, which is going to be weird but could be interesting, especially if we allow some of these laws to stay relaxed so that restaurants can take advantage of that weird yet similar transition.

E: One of my biggest concerns is we have restaurants closed, we have bars closed, and going into fall what is it that we at VinePair, that we as professionals can help consumers do? The thing that I keep on coming back to is this question of discovery. There have been massive spikes for all the big brands like Josh Cellars and Casamigos and Bud Light on all of the ordering platforms but the thing that we still haven’t solved for yet — because bars and restaurants are closed — is how do you help consumers discover smaller brands, whether it’s wine, beer, or spirits? That element of discovery is something that we are going to lean into this fall at VinePair and just help people find these smaller brands. I feel like if we don’t do our part in trying to help consumers find these smaller brands there’s going to be even more of these companies that close. For example, one of the things that we’re doing is the “$250 Case Challenge” where we’re asking somms and wine professionals to put together an entire 12 bottle case for $250 of the best bottles they can curate from a national retailer. Do you guys know Philippe André, the brand ambassador at Charles Heidsieck? He’s amazing and a totally hilarious, cool guy. He accepted our challenge. We are just going to go from national retailer to national retailer and put together the best case you can find. At first, he was like, “you’re crazy,” but eventually, he did it and figured out the best 12 bottles I can buy for that total amount. And he’s recommending some amazing bottles, and that’s going to come out about a week from now. We’re going to go from retailer to retailer because I think one of the key things that frustrate me and other wine buyers I know is “how do I buy it?” I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard from listeners and readers they’re psyched to try this thing we recommended, but they can’t find it online. And the existing platforms that are out there are not great, so as a consumer I think it’s especially frustrating to buy wine online. And we’re not a retailer, but we can help consumers by telling them about cool bottles they can buy online. I think helping to solve that through a variety of articles that we’re doing — we have a cool one coming out about limited-edition whiskey releases — will lead to a better fall for a lot of people that are going to be stuck inside and bored and they want to be buying the same crap that they’re buying on Wine.com all the time.

Z: I was just going to say that. I think that Erica’s point is a really good one, and it feeds back into this problem that we’re going to be facing with restaurants being much less able to be that point of discovery. It’s already been greatly diminished because of Covid and then maybe has been floating along with outdoor dining. Maybe you can get introduced to some new things in that capacity but that’s why all these conversations feed into and of one another in that were facing a crisis of consolidation in the industry where so much of the purchasing, especially in times like this, is run through a few narrow channels and those channels are dominated by large brands and distributors and I’m excited to hear that we’re interested in continuing to try to provide people with some alternatives or at least if you’re going to work within those big national channels giving some options that are not the stayed set of options that dominant those shelves. I think it’s very true that there’s a lot of desire for people to continue to discover and maybe bring those gatherings around a sporting event or other events from listeners to showcase to your friends some of the things that you have discovered. Whether with our help or someone else’s help, there’s possibility here, but it’s going to take work.

A: You know where to reach us: podcast@vinepair.com. You can tell us what you have been drinking. The fall is going to be very interesting. I think we’re going to see how everything evolves and will continue to discover new things; in the summer I think we saw that they did. People turned back to old cocktails they maybe haven’t made in a while. We also saw that people made new cocktails. We saw that people jumped on board with different kinds of wines, and I think that discovery hopefully will continue, and hopefully people will find it easier to do with new tools like our new column that Erica said we’re launching. Because I think we have to go into the fall as positive as possible otherwise it’s just going to be all doom and gloom of “we had these three months of sunshine and warmth and everyone going to the beach and now we’re back to those months in Covid” and I hope we can go in as positive as possible, especially because this election season is going to be brutal.

Z: Yeah there’s enough negativity that’s going to be out there.

A: It’s going to be brutal. If we can, then hopefully we can make it out of this thing as soon as possible, and I think we all have to be advocates for restaurants and bars that are struggling. Try to help them as much as you can. Talk to your lawmakers, encourage them to set up funding for them, because if not, people are going to get desperate. I’m from a college town, and I’ve seen recently that the college that I’m from has opened back up, and I’m nervous about it, because my parents are still down there — even though they’re retired from being professors — but the one bar over the weekend was packed. Way over capacity, and I don’t want to think the bar owner is a bad actor, I just want to think at this point they’re just desperate. They need to make money, and no one else is helping them. It’s a lot easier to follow the regulations if people are helping you and no one is really reaching out so help as much as you can because if not it’s not going to be a beautiful lovely fall.

E: I was looking at the State Liquor Authority for New York, and already 162 business’ liquor licenses have been suspended. There’s been like 900 other violations, and I think that for the operators that are open, they’re really desperate. And if you look at the list of violations, it’s for indoor bar service, walk-up service, no mask enforcement, people not socially distanced, operators are doing what they can to stay afloat, and sometimes that means they are taking chances that maybe they shouldn’t be, but it’s a desperate situation.

A: It is. And this is totally off topic, but one of my other pet peeves is when your server comes to your table, put your f***ing mask on. I’ve seen so many servers that I’m friends with saying at this point it’s ridiculous. They’re wearing theirs to protect you, you should wear yours to protect them. I get it if they surprise you out of nowhere, fine, but when you’re ready to order put your f***ing mask on. Show them the same courtesy that they’re showing you, and that they legally have to show you, and you should legally have to show them. That’s my other pet peeve.

Z: Otherwise, you’re not really much better than that guy that drove up to the restaurant and screamed at the hostess, you’re just a little quieter.

A: Right. And fine, you wore it to get seated, but then all bets are off. Covid doesn’t go away because you’ve been seated at your table. Everyone is aware of it, and if we’re all aware of it, then the number will stay low. So be courteous, and show them a little gratitude, and be a kind person. It’s really stressful what they’re doing, and they’re doing it because they also need to make a living, and they have a job that doesn’t let them work from home. And we’ll get through the fall, it’ll be great. I’m really excited about fall, actually.

Z: It’s going to be a weird one, but hopefully some good.

A: I always like fall.

E: I do, too.

Z: You are definitely a fall guy.

A: Summer is my favorite season, but I would say fall is a close second.

E: Fall is my favorite, I love fall.

Z: I’m a spring guy, but that’s just me.

A: Really?

Z: I think it’s because I don’t find baseball boring. I love baseball.

A: Baseball is so boring, but that explains a lot about you. Were you like the kid that kept stats on the players? You totally did.

Z: I’m not going to say no.

A: I just never could get into baseball, it’s just so boring.

Z: It’s for refined palates only. It’s the Cognac of sports. When you’re an adult, Adam, you’ll appreciate it.

A: It’s amazing that you brought it full circle into our ad. Bartenders, enter the Cognac connection challenge to win a $1,000 cash stipend. Deadline is Sept. 7. Go to cognacconnection.com to enter and for details. Zach is now going to submit a baseball-themed Cognac cocktail. With that being said, it’s been another fun one, and we’ll see you back here next week.

E: See you then.

Z: Sounds great.

A: Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair Podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now, for the credits. VinePair is produced and hosted by Zach Geballe, Erica Duecy, and me: Adam Teeter. Our engineer is Nick Patri and Keith Beavers. I’d also like to give a special shout-out to my VinePair co-founder Josh Malin and the rest of the VinePair team for their support. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll see you again right here next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.