On this episode of the “VinePair Podcast,” hosts Adam Teeter, Joanna Sciarrino, and Zach Geballe look at the return of speakeasies in urban spaces. What even constitutes a speakeasy in the modern world, as opposed to establishments found during the Prohibtion era? Do these spaces cater toward aestethics and trends instead? Tune in to learn more.

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Adam Teeter: From Charleston, South Carolina, I’m Adam Teeter. 

Joanna Sciarrino: And I’m Joanna Sciarrino. 

Zach Geballe: Envying you guys in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe. 

A: And this is the “VinePair Podcast.” Aww, Zach. 

Z: I miss you guys. 

J: We miss you, bud. 

A: You’ve been here before. You were here before ,though and you were like, “I don’t know if your oysters are as good as our oysters in Seattle.” Remember that? 

Z: I stand by my clams. But sadly, I have developed a mild oyster allergy. It’s actually a real bummer.

A: How did that happen? 

Z: Oh, allergies suck, dude. Not to start the podcast out on a depressing note, but I recently found out that I have — not a severe allergy at this point, although it could become more severe, sadly — to oysters, scallops. Not all shellfish. I’m apparently not allergic to mussels, but to clams, oysters, and scallops, which is a bummer. 

A: That’s crazy, man. What a bummer.

Z: I guess maybe I’m not missing as much as I would be. 

A: In humanity, there’s always something we can’t eat, right? We all have something we can’t eat. Yours is shellfish, mine is spicy foods, some and people’s is dairy. 

J: I can eat everything, actually. 

A: OK, Joanna, f*ck it. Just up here, flexing. 

Z: That sounds like a challenge. 

A: I know, seriously. So Zach, what have you drank this week? 

Z: I can still drink, fortunately. Well, I drank a couple of things. I followed, or I wouldn’t say I followed your advice, Adam, but I had something that reminded me of a thing you talked about on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. I had a relatively older bottle of Gran Reserva Rioja from Sierra Cantabria and it was delicious. It as a 2008 vintage, but I only bought it within the last year or year and a half. Maybe they’re on to their 2009 or 2010. But in other words, their current release was at least a decade old and is a great bottle of wine. I love older Rioja, or I guess current vintage, but it’s a decade-plus old usually when you get your hands on it. That was really, really tasty. And then to do a little bit of cross-promotion, those of you listening to this probably know we’re in the middle of running a six-part series I did with PÁTRON, all about tequila. When the series aired, my wife was like, “Oh, we should probably drink some tequila,” and I was like, “I’m on board with this.” So I had some of the extra añejo last night, which was also very tasty. 

A: That’s a great tequila. 

Z: It is a great tequila. They all have their place and time. Obviously, the way I enjoy the blanco or the silver is a little different than the extra añejo. But the extra añejo is just in a glass and I sip it, I don’t really f*ck around beyond that. But you guys have been traveling. What have you had?

A: We have. Joanna, come on, we’re in Charleston for the Charleston Wine and Food Festival

J: We are. We really kicked off the trip with a bang last night. We had a really wonderful dinner at Post House Inn and had some really delicious drinks there. I had a Corpse Reviver, and Adam will make fun of me for this, but I had a very delicious spiked hot chocolate

A: You did, it was really silly. 

J: With rum, green chartreuse, and peppercorn whipped cream. Like, come on.

A: As she’s having it she turns to me and goes, “Adam, this is the best hot chocolate I’ve ever had.” It looks delicious, but it’s still boozy hot chocolate, Joanna. 

J: But come on, rum and green chartreuse, that’s interesting. And a peppercorn cream? 

Z: It’s no Swiss Miss. 

A: So as we record, because we’re at the festival, I’m having a PBR. So you’re getting toasty Adam today. 

J: Adam, you’re always toasty. 

Z: Sometimes he’s zesty. 

J: He’s spicy?

A: Usually I’m hopped up on espresso. Today there’s a few beers because we’re at the festival, so I’m still going to be hopped up, but in a different way. I had a Vesper last night at Post House Inn, which was really delicious. And then today we went to an amazing rosé masterclass that we hosted. We drank some Brendel rosé, some other really cool wines. At the walk-around tasting, I had an OK cocktail from a whiskey brand that I won’t discuss here. I think it’s hard to do festivals, I think festival cocktails are hard. It’s hard to do volume at a festival. They were out of the cocktail I wanted; it was a very, very, very prominent whiskey bourbon brand. They only had the other cocktail. And I asked, “Is this a cocktail that is home in Charleston?” Because I’d never heard of it before. I’d heard from people at the Charleston Wine and Food Festival that it is Charleston’s cocktail. It’s the Planter’s Punch. I think that Charleston kind of claims it, right? Is that true? Yeah, alright cool. 

Z: That’s live fact checking, folks. We don’t usually have that. 

A: I’m getting confirmation here from the amazing Charleston team. But they didn’t know. They’re like, “Oh, we don’t know.” OK, cool, I’ll try it. It was fine. 

J: Lots more drinking ahead.

A: A lot more drinking ahead, we’re here all weekend. We’re recording on Friday, obviously. But we did want to talk about that. What we want to talk about today is something that has been in the world of our conversations for a while, but we’ve never really had the hook in to discuss. That is the speakeasy and its relevance. I will bring up this anecdote of flying down to Charleston.

Z: Oh, I see where this is going. 

A: We went into JFK and in JFK, there is a Centurion lounge. For those that are unaware, Centurion lounge is a lounge that Amex operates for platinum cardholders. I’m a platinum Amex card holder. 

Z: I was going to say, humblebrag over here. Or not even humble. 

J: Not so humble. 

Z: It’s a zesty brag. 

A: So Tim, Oset, Joanna, and I go into the Centurion lounge. It’s recently opened, and one of the hooks of the lounge is that they have a f*ckin speakeasy in it. You go downstairs and there’s a very clearly marked door. It’s not even trying to hide to be a fake door, but it’s a door that says 1850 next to it. I guess that must be when Amex was started. Who f*cking knows anyways? And you go in and it’s a speakeasy, where the entire cocktail program has been done by Jim Meehan.

J: Of PDT fame. 

A: Yeah, exactly. The famous speakeasy. The question we have is, are speakeasies relevant anymore? What is the point of them? I feel like they’ve gained new relevance over the past few years because of TikTok. You see them more and more now. But are they actually that cool? Do we all want to drink at a speakeasy? Also the fact that they’ve expanded across Europe, where they never had Prohibition, so therefore they never had a need to have a speakeasy. They literally were not trying to hide the consumption of alcohol ever is kind of hilarious. New York alone probably has six, seven, or eight speakeasies. You have the Cupping Room, PDT, the weird one in the subway station, the ice cream shop, the bodega. You have all these speakeasies, and now JFK has one. So I’m curious what both your thoughts are about speakeasies, as a concept and then the current state we find ourselves in? 

Z: Joanna, since you were recently in one, you should give your thoughts first. 

J: Sure. Yeah, I don’t know. I think this is interesting because there is obviously an allure of the speakeasy. This idea that you’re going to a secret bar that people don’t know about and you have to ring a certain phone to get in. You maybe get in, but maybe not. I think that part is fun and interesting. So I understand this part of drinking culture being exported to Europe, or them trying to recreate it there, because I think it’s a fun idea. My issue with speakeasies now is that you can make reservations at a speakeasy. You can use an app. So that part kind of defeats the purpose of the original intent of the speakeasy, to be a secret bar. I definitely think that takes away from the appeal. I also just think they are too mass now. Everybody knows about them. I feel like a speakeasy these days is just a style of bar. You have a pub and you have a speakeasy. And  I think at least with speakeasies, you can expect to get good cocktails. They’re going to have a good cocktail program. 

A:I don’t think so. No, I call hard bullsh*t on that. 

J: OK, you’re going to a bar that purports to be a speakeasy or speakeasy-style bar. 

A: Do you think that the ice cream shop bar has good cocktails? 

J: Well, you’re not going to get well drinks. 

A: True. 

J: You’re going to have cocktails and a cocktail menu. Whether they’re good or not, I don’t know. So I think that it’s kind of a style of a bar now. 

A: Yeah, it is. It’s become a style for marketing purposes

J: Like the subway bar, right? 

A: The subway bar is all for marketing. 

J: There’s a speakeasy in the 28th Street station of the 1 train. I’ve never been. I don’t think I’ll ever go. But it sounds like a great TikTok story. 

Z: I bet it’s less good than the sushi restaurants in Japanese subway stations. 

A: But that’s a vibe, right? How many speakeasies are in Seattle, Zach? 

Z: Oh boy. It definitely had its first heyday in the late aughts and early 2010s here. There were a bunch of them. Tavern Law was already a bar that was designed Prohibition-era sensibility is, you know, there were definitely suspenders and waxed mustaches and stuff. It was a really popular bar here. Inside it, they had their own speakeasy. It was definitely modeled on some of the bars in New York and other places. I’m sure that a couple of those places are still around.

J: Do you feel that there has there been a resurgence?

Z: I don’t think so. But one thing that’s really different about cocktail culture in Seattle versus probably in New York is that Seattle has, especially since the pandemic started, a lot of the cocktail bars have really been struggling. Just because you don’t have the same density of people. You do have to have a certain density of people wanting to go out for a drink every night of the week to make something that’s as stylized as a speakeasy. But I candidly have not been going out for cocktails much since the pandemic started, for pandemic and parenting reasons. One thing that is interesting to me about this whole conversation is that, with speakeasies in particular and that whole conceit of the place, are we really just talking about the the cocktail bar equivalent of the VIP lounge in a nightclub? Isn’t that kind of the same aesthetic and the same kind of vibe we’re going for? That people are wanting something that feels more exclusive than the main experience, even if functionally, all you’re having is the exact same experience we could have in a different bar or in another part of the same bar. But it’s in a segregated part, that part that’s sectioned off in one way or another. Is that really what people are excited about? 

J: I don’t think so. I feel like with the VIP lounge, not everyone can get in. But with a speakeasy, everyone can. 

Z: I guess nowadays everyone can get in. Yes, that’s the point. 

A: Right, right. Probably late aughts, early 2010s, as you’re saying, I think that argument would hold true. You had to figure out the number to call for PDT. You had to get the number first, then it would be busy, busy, busy. Somehow you got it if you called at the right time and someone picked up, and you got a table. So it was very exclusive and there was always expectations of what you were spending based on the fact that you got in.

J: Or you had to know someone. 

A: Right, or be a celebrity. When PDT was in its heyday, I was drinking at a table and Clive Owen was next to me. 

J: Oh, that’s cool. 

A: Yeah, it was super cool. I was like Clive Owen. Now that you can make the f*cking reservation on Resy, it’s just exclusive to feel exclusive, but it’s actually not exclusive at all. 

J: Another part of this conversation is this idea that there’s a younger generation of people who were not around for that. 

Z: Of legal drinking age, yeah. 

J: Right, exactly. That’s why I think it’s so popular again, and that people are opening new speakeasies, because there’s the TikTok culture generation where this is very appealing to them. So it’s finding a hold with this generation. 

Z: I want to ask a question on that vein, Joanna. Do you think it’s that for younger people who maybe didn’t have the speakeasy experience previously and/or just people who have shifted their social media consumption to TikTok from other platforms or whatever? If you’re someone that wants to make a name for yourself on TikTok, or is attracted to that whole kind of approach, are these spaces analogous or aligned with what we’re talking about before? That they’re designed to look good on TikTok or is it just the perception of exclusivity that is appealing? 

J: I think it’s the latter. You’re the person hosting the TikTok who can go into the exclusive place that people maybe aren’t going to or don’t know about or something like that. 

A: It’s that desire to step into this other world. The most popular speakeasies now are the speakeasies where it’s not just the unmarked door. Those still exist, right? I know I talk about Lancaster, Pa., a lot, it’s a great city, you guys should visit. Not just because my wife is from there. But they have a speakeasy downtown, which is hilarious to me. It’s an unmarked door. But for the most part, what you’re seeing in the popularity of speakeasies is actually speakeasies inside other places. It’s the faux place. And you’re not even seeing it just in drinks. In New York, there is a tasting menu-only restaurant called Frevo, which I would argue is actually a very good restaurant with a very inventive menu and a delicious wine list. But it is behind a painting in an art gallery. So they’ve created a fake art gallery

J: It’s a fake art gallery? 

A: Yeah, basically. So I was talking to the owners, and they basically said the way that they came up the concept was, they wanted the restaurant to be smaller. They always said they wanted to do a tasting menu-style restaurant. And the space was too big. It was very long, very deep. To make the intimacy they wanted, they had to cut the front off. So they had this dead space. It’s almost the size of the room we’re sitting in now, which no one else can see. But probably, I don’t know, 20 feet deep. So they were like, “Well, let’s build a fake wall there and just do something else.” One of their friends is like, “Well, I’m an artist. I’ll make art, like, you’re a well-known artist, why don’t we show your work and sell it?” And then it just became an art gallery. The reason it shows up on TikTok all the time is because it’s the cool tasting menu restaurant that’s secretly behind an art gallery. And I think people like that. It’s the bar behind the subway station. It’s the bar behind the ice cream shop, inside the bodega, inside the taco shop. That’s what everyone thinks is so cool. Holy sh*t, you got to run two f*cking separate businesses. That sounds like the worst. You got to run an ice cream shop and a bar. F*ck, that’s a lot to deal with. 

J: I also think it’s interesting because I think of a place like Patent Pending, which is behind a coffee shop in New York. That’s their daytime business, and then Patent Pending is their nighttime business. 

A: That makes more sense to me. 

Z: Well, there’s definitely been a proliferation of these mixed-use spaces here in Seattle. A lot of places that are trying to operate under one kind of business model during the day and switching over to something that’s more beverage alcohol focused at night, as a way to maximize revenue. You’re paying the same rent no matter how many hours a day you’re open. So if you can generate revenue in the daytime and at night, that’s a more logical approach perhaps than just trying to do business in one time window. 

A: Agreed.

Z: I want to ask you guys another question about this, because I’m curious for your thoughts. Are we past the point where we could ever return to the kind of speakeasy that you described, Adam, in the early days of PDT? Where something could really, truly be a word-of-mouth thing. Because now, whether it’s TikTok, Instagram, all this stuff, as soon as it starts to get any kind of reputation, presumably there’s going to be someone posting on social media about it. Do you think there are places out there — I’m not talking about underground gambling dens or whatever — that are truly off the radar? Could you open a place where you confiscate everyone’s phone when they come? You cannot post while you’re here? Word would maybe still get out, because people can post other times. Are we just past a point where a true speakeasy, in the sense that you really have to know to get in, could ever exist? 

J: We were talking to our colleague, Katie Brown, and she was telling us about a place in Philadelphia where they do just that. 

A: It’s Hop Sing Laundromat

J: Yes. They either take your phone or you’re not allowed to take pictures. 

A: There’s a very strict rule list. And they’ll ban you. They’ll ban you for life. 

J: Yes, so I guess that does exist. You’re really not meant to know much about this place unless you hear about it from someone else. 

A: It has been covered, obviously. I think you could do it. But you have to be someone that is willing to turn away customers. And you have to be someone that’s willing to operate your reservation system on burner phones, basically. The number changes every X weeks and you really are only texting the new number out to your core clientele and hoping your core clientele then only sends that number back out to the people that they trust. Then that person who was trusted leaks it to TikTok, the burner phone changes. I think that’s the only way that you could operate. Especially in a post-Covid world right now, it’s probably hard unless you’re independently wealthy. I could see it being someone’s hobby. Oh, this seems like a cool thing to run because I love exclusivity already, because I have a private jet ready to take off. You know, my Gulfstream is good to go. 

J: It’s kind of the opposite of the Instagram bar that we were talking about weeks ago.

A: Exactly. To do that, you really don’t want to make money. 

Z: I have one more question for you guys in this vein. Are we missing something here? This was not true of any of the “speakeasies” that I went to in their previous heyday. I don’t know if it was true of any of the ones that either of you might have gone to. To your point, Adam, that it’s sort of silly that these things are popping up in Europe where there was no Prohibition, so what could be the point?

A: That’s just hilarious. Come on. 

Z: Oh, for sure. But are we missing something? This is maybe borderline not OK to talk about on the podcast, but are we missing something where there’s no element of illegality to what’s going on? I’m definitely not advocating anyone breaking the law, for sure. But part of the whole conceit and the nostalgia for the original speakeasies during the Prohibition era in the U.S. was this idea that you were doing something outside the law. I don’t know that any of the speakeasies operated in the aughts or ’10s were breaking laws in any real way. But some of them might have been breaking fire code or maybe they needed a separate liquor license or something. Maybe they stayed open later than they were supposed to. There was at least, I think in some of them, the veneer that maybe we were doing something a little bit not OK. 

J: Illicit, yeah. 

Z: That’s what Joanna was saying. It’s just another skin for a cocktail bar. OK, this is a speakeasy-themed bar versus a tropical drink-themed bar versus a Paris Gilded Age-themed bar. It’s just a skin for your bar. There’s nothing to the  original idea that remains other than just the aesthetic. 

A: I think the biggest thing they were doing in the early aughts wasn’t breaking the law, but they were going and operating in neighborhoods that people didn’t go to that often. Where Milk & Honey was and Attaboy is, is obviously super gentrified. But at the time, when they were deep in the Lower East Side, no one went there. I don’t know why, I feel terrible. The speakeasy in San Francisco was in the Tenderloin. It still is in the Tenderloin, right? People didn’t go there. Now more people do. The idea was, the speakeasy was in these neighborhoods where no one was going. That was part of their allure. It wasn’t just, “Oh, it’s an unmarked door,” it’s an unmarked door and if I can’t find it, we’re f*ucked. That was the feeling people had, and you don’t have that anymore, because everyone’s returned to urban centers and people feel very safe throughout their cities. I think that the new speakeasy is just kitsch. It’s Instagram, it’s a different kind of speakeasy. There’s no, “I got to find this place and we’re gonna have this crazy night where we can say we were in a part of the city we never were.” I don’t know how many people are going to go to a speakeasy deep in Brooklyn or deep in Queens. They’re great parts of the city of New York, my city, but they’re also a long f*cking trip home. And that’s an expensive Uber ride for most people. The fact that all of Manhattan, or the parts of Manhattan that are very easy to get to, has been discovered, kind of hurts that kind of speakeasy. Now we’re in this position where it really is just like, “Oh, cool, do you want to go to a speakeasy inside of an ice cream shop?” Let’s get two scoops first. 

Z: Can I ask you guys, do either of you have any memorable speakeasy experiences, either somewhat recently or past? I have a story I’d like to share, but I’d like to hear from you guys. 

A: Please share yours first. You want to share it, and I got to hear it. 

Z: A number of years ago, Caitlin and I were in Philadelphia for a friend’s wedding. It was the night of the rehearsal dinner, which was fine, but we were wanting to go out and do something. The previous night we had been with a bunch of my college friends, it was a college friend who was getting married, and the next night was the wedding. So we knew it was our one night to do anything in Philadelphia, kind of just the two of us. So we left the hotel we were staying, which was not quite all the way into West Philadelphia, but kind of on the border near Drexel,  for those of you who are in Philadelphia or know it well. We were going to walk around and see what we found. We first went into another bar that was actually very quiet, but we were just going to get a drink, hang out, and talk to the bartender. After we’d had a drink, we’re like, “Hey, do you have anywhere else you’d recommend?” He’s like, “Well, here’s a couple of places. Or if you’re up for a real adventure, there’s this place called Fiume.” Which is on the second floor above an Ethiopian restaurant, and we’re like, “That sounds cool.” He told us where it is, we looked up on the phone, it’s like a 20-25 minute walk. It’s summer, it’s a nice night. So we walk over to this place and we’re in West Philadelphia. It’s a totally nondescript street corner in a residential neighborhood. There’s a small Ethiopian restaurant. And we look above it and it looks like someone’s living room window. I guess there’s a bar there. OK, let’s let’s find out. We walk into the Ethiopian restaurant, and mind you it’s like 10 or 11 p.m., the restaurant is still open. There’s a few people eating in there and we walk up to the front and are like, “We’re here to go to the bar.” And the guy’s like, “Upstairs.” So we like walk up the stairs, which are totally just an apartment building staircase. It’s still feels like you’re in someone’s apartment. We get to the door and there’s no sign or anything. We knock on the door, a guy opens it and he says, “What do you want?” I’m like, “Can we get a drink?” And looks at us and he’s like, “I got two seats.” It’s essentially an apartment living room, there are a few couches, and some chairs. There are probably 25 or 30 people in the room. There’s a bar that seats four to six people and there’s two seats open. So we go sit down there and the bartender is a trip. He’s definitely not speakeasy style in terms of like, no suspenders. The dude looks he was quite possibly very high. 

J: This sounds illegal. 

A: It sounds super illegal, like this wasn’t a legal bar. This is a bar in someone’s apartment.

Z: But it’s not. Well, I don’t think it exists anywhere. I think Covid killed it. They were actually licensed. They had a liquor license. I saw it hanging in the back. They had their cocktails. They had a lot of beer as well. It was really cool. We had a couple of drinks there. We asked the guy for some more recommendations. He literally ripped off a piece of a beer carton and wrote the names of five other bars in Sharpie, which we kept for a while. I think it’s since disappeared. We’re not big scrapbookers, so it didn’t linger. But it was really cool. It was a really cool experience and definitely speaks to the thing that a speakeasy or something in that vein can do. It gives you that element — not of danger, exactly — but of the unknown, the discovery, the nondescript door. And that’s really cool.

A: It feels like you’re in on a secret. That’s what people like. Joanna, what about you? 

J: Oh gosh. I feel like going to PDT for the first time was very formative for me. Getting through that phone booth, not knowing if I was going to get through the phone booth. 

Z: You weren’t with Clive Owen? 

J: No, I wasn’t with Clive. There’s a place in the city called Blind Barber. I don’t know if it’s cool anymore. 

A: Oh, I knew Blind Barber. 

J: Yeah, back in the day it was so cool, you have to go through a barber shop. It’s just off of Tompkins Square Park and it is truly through the barber shop. And then there’s a bar back there called Blind Barber. I was in college at NYU and I was going to meet my brother and his friends, and they were there. Again, I didn’t know if I would get in. It was this cocktail den when you get through, and it was really busy with lots of people. That was pretty great for me, too. 

A: That’s cool. The coolest one early on for me was Milk & Honey. Naomi got the number, I didn’t get it, but she got the number and that was super cool. It was just a really memorable experience. A terrible experience I had was in Europe at Buck and Breck, which is a very well-known speakeasy in Berlin. You get there and the whole front looks like could be a warehouse or liquor store. It always says closed. Naomi and I walked by three times before we realized we should probably ring a buzzer. You don’t know what to do, you can pull the door and ring that buzzer. We go in, and we didn’t realize that in the speakeasies in Berlin, you can also smoke. It was the worst cocktail ever because we’re just covered in smoke and I couldn’t taste. I was like, “Let’s just go.” But I mean, I guess cool for them. They had a speakeasy where you could smoke. I still think that things like PDT and Blind Barber, all those places early on, were such cool experiences. Even Pouring Ribbons, to be honest. There was there was an allure to Pouring Ribbons. 

J: Is it a speakeasy? 

A: It wasn’t, but it was a second floor spa. A lot of people didn’t know it. And before it was Pouring Ribbons, it was a really cool dance party club called Mr. Chow or something. It was above a bodega, so no one really knew about it. It had the same kind of allure as that other spot in the East Village that’s right near Amor Y Amargo. There were so many speakeasies in the East Village at one time that it’s insane to think about. Even more Amor Y Amargo was kind of a speakeasy. No one knew about, it was an unmarked door. Those are the things that you didn’t know about at that time, so they felt really special. Now I feel like we’re in this world where the speakeasy is just kitsch. And I’m not here for that. 

J: And there are more of them now.

A: There’s way more of them. I miss the speakeasy that used to be in my neighborhood in Fort Greene. It was this really cool Japanese bar in the back of Walter’s that was really great, but I don’t think it’s opened post-pandemic. But I miss it, it had a really good highball. I’m not the biggest fan of Highballs, but it was the one I liked there. 

J: Me neither. 

A: I know, Joanna admitted that to me last night at dinner. She was like, “I don’t like highballs. I know it’s not cool to say I don’t like highballs, but I don’t like them.” I don’t really like them either, Joanna. 

J: Sorry, everyone. 

A: I don’t think they’re coming back. They’re not, no one likes a highball. Zach, do you like a highball?

Z: It’s generally not my preferred cocktail style, but there’s a place for something. I like a long drink from time to time. It’s useful when you want to have something, but you want it to last and you want it to not be too boozy. But that’s another topic. We’ll get there. 

A: Speaking of booze, we’re going to go because we have to hit up an oyster and wine party right now. 

Z: Have some oysters for me. 

A: You won’t approve of them, because none of them are West Coast. 

Z: It doesn’t matter to me. 

A: Oh yeah, true. It’s not going to be as fun to tease you now that I feel bad. 

Z: I won’t have any leg to stand on anymore. 

A: But I’ll talk to you guys on Friday. 

J: Yes, sounds great. 

Z: Have a great time, guys. 

Thanks so much for listening to the “VinePair Podcast.” If you love this show as much as we love making it, please leave us a rating or review on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever it is you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show.

Now for the credits. VinePair is produced and recorded in New York City and Seattle, Washington, by myself and Zach Geballe, who does all the editing and loves to get the credit. Also, I would love to give a special shout-out to my VinePair co-founder, Josh Malin, for helping make all of this possible, and also to Keith Beavers, VinePair’s tastings director, who is additionally a producer on the show. I also want to, of course, thank every other member of the VinePair team, who are instrumental in all of the ideas that go into making the show every week. Thanks so much for listening, and we’ll see you again.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.