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Among many other actions as our new president, Joe Biden has called to increase the federal minimum wage in the U.S. to $15 per hour and eliminate the concept of the tipped minimum wage. In response, the restaurant and bar industries have largely claimed that such changes would adversely affect efforts to recover from the Covid-19 pandemic.

On this week’s “VinePair Podcast,” Adam Teeter and Zach Geballe discuss whether there’s any validity to these claims, why the claim that increasing the minimum wage will suddenly cause prices to skyrocket is silly, and why everyone from restaurateurs to diners should support the idea of a living wage for all workers.

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Adam: From Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter.

Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the “VinePair Podcast.” Oh Zach, I feel so good. This is a great week. Feeling really positive. Feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. That’s all I’m going to say. Those who know, know.

Z: Dry January? Almost over.

A: Oh, yeah, that’s what I did. I’m done with that s***. But for those of you that aren’t, you might be interested in this week’s sponsor. Are you aiming to cut back on calories and alcohol but still want to enjoy a delicious glass of wine? Mind and Body Wines are your perfect solution. These low-calorie, low-alcohol wines are only 90 calories per serving and are vegan, gluten-free, non-GMO and made without added sugar. With Mind and Body, you can sip without sacrifice. Learn more at mindandbodywines.com. Yeah, man, I stopped. It was too much. I’m still in moderation, obviously. But this weekend, I did not imbibe, actually. But then on Sunday night, I was making a meal with Naomi, and she was like, are we not having wine? I made fresh pasta and a pasta sauce I like from Franny’s Cookbook. And I was like, “Yeah, we’re drinking wine.” And then Tuesday night, I again was like, “I don’t think I’m gonna drink.” But then Wednesday night, I was like, “It’s the inauguration. I gotta have something.”

Z: What did you inaugurate yourself with?

A: Just a beer, but a delicious beer.

Z: Just a beer? Yeah, that’s good.

A: It was a delicious beer. And then tonight, actually, I’m meeting up with a wine entrepreneur who I really respect a lot, Mary Taylor. I don’t know if we talked about this before.

Z: We’ve had Mary on the podcast!

A: That’s right! Yes. So Mary and I are getting drinks because she lives in Brooklyn, but just sold her place and is moving to Connecticut, and I was like, “I’d love to see you before I leave.” And, she and I are both Stern alums, and I think her wines are awesome. And I think her concept is really cool. It’s shocking to me that she’s the first person to do this. I mean, she’s literally just taking the importer label on the back of the label and putting it on the front of the label. But it’s so smart. And she’s gotten a lot of great pickups. I know the company’s growing a lot, so I’m excited to hear about that, but she was like, “Do you want to get beers?” And I was just like, “yeah.” I guess this is what’s happening. Let’s go sit outside and have a beer. I haven’t had a draft beer in a long time, so let’s sit in the cold and do that. So, yeah Dry January was a nice thing. It was a good week-and-a-half run. I really gave the old college try. But I realized that for me, a drink or two a few days a week is a nice reward. It’s a nice breakup. And I’m healthy. I exercise, I drink within reason. I’m not going to punish myself.

Z: Yeah, fair enough, man. I cannot argue with any of the generals or particulars there, because I just think for me it’s like I’ve just found that I have a harder time doing three or four days a week not drinking. I can do one, maybe two a week, but I hate to reiterate this on the podcast seemingly every other week, but life with kids, man, like I need that drink most weeks, most nights. But January, more than halfway there.

A: You just power through.

Z: Yeah. I mean I gotta tell you, I was very tempted by the inauguration. I was like, well you know if I didn’t drink four years ago at the last inauguration — and I didn’t, somehow — I’m not going to drink this time, either. So I’ll save my celebration for February.

A: I want to make another admission, too, which is that a few nights earlier this week, on one of the nights I wasn’t drinking. We have a SodaStream, and I was making some soda water and I was like, “Hmm. Should I put some bitters in this?” And then I was like, “I can’t do it, I can’t do it, because I can’t tell Zach I did it and liked it! So I’m not putting bitters in this. I’m putting lemon in it.”

Z: Cat Wolinksi, though, Cat is on team bitters and soda now. So she is. Yeah, she let me know. I think she posted on that on Twitter or something about it. I mean, I’ll try this. It’s not my drink. I didn’t create it. I mean, it’s been a restaurant staple, but it is really funny because a thing I learned from talking about this, having it out on the podcast and people responding to me about it, was the breakdown is really stark. If you have worked in a restaurant or you’re connected to someone who has, you are way more likely to have tried bitters and soda, which I guess makes sense because the biggest thing about it is at restaurants. Bitters are just there. Right?

A: Right, exactly.

Z: The s******** bar imaginable has Angostura bitters. And in a s***** bar, they’re probably not using it for anything else. So you can probably just load your drink up with it, your soda up with it. And most people at home, if they have bitters, they think that bitters are something you use two dashes of — which in a lot of cocktails you do, to be fair. But it was just really interesting to me to get the feedback from people that I know or on social media. Yeah, it was very skewed towards the restaurant industry. It maybe shouldn’t have surprised me, but did nonetheless.

A: What is your recipe for bitters and sodas? How many dashes is it, then?

Z: Oh, man. It’s to the point where I’ve stopped counting. I would say it’s probably a good quarter to a half-ounce of bitters.

A: So you’re getting that alcohol in there, then. You’re not doing Dry January! I mean, it’s the equivalent of having a quarter- or a half-ounce of whiskey. Yes, is there some amount of alcohol there? Sure. I’m also for work occasionally having to taste stuff and spit it out. Does no alcohol cross my lips? Of course not. But like, I’m also not drinking seven bitters and sodas in a sitting. I’ll drink one every few days. It’s a treat. Otherwise it’s just nothing but soda without the bitters. Sometimes with flavors. Because that is how my wife and I get through this month. She drinks flavored soda water year-round. But for me it’s mostly a January indulgence. Otherwise, I’m drinking other stuff.

A: I love Spindrift.

Z: Yeah, yeah. Great stuff.

A: Spindrift is my favorite.

Z: That’s the treat for me because it’s got some fruit juice in it. And then most of the rest of the time it’s whatever brand or some combination of the famous ones and whatever ones Kaitlyn orders via Amazon Fresh that show up. I don’t know, they’re proprietary brands that I don’t even remember, but they’re just in the fridge. I just grab one. Are you particular about flavor, though? Because I am very particular on flavor with these.

A: Oh yeah. So for me, for Spindrift, I’m grapefruit all the way.

Z: I have yet to try the grapefruit. They keep being sold out, the blackberry is the one I really like. I can do the raspberry lime which we have sometimes. The thing I can’t do is, not so much with Spindrift, but there’s the whole thing about coconut soda water and I just can’t do it. It tastes weird to me. It’s oily and I don’t dig it. My wife loves them. So they’re all her.

A: She likes the coconut-flavored sparkling waters?

Z: Yeah. And I just can’t get behind it. I like most of them, but coconut just missed me with that one. I like coconut water, I like coconut-flavored things generally. But the coconut sparkling water, it’s a texture thing or a perceived texture thing or something. I’m not sure.

A: That’s crazy, man. So, today we’re talking about minimum wage, right?

Z: That’s right.

A: You want to lead us off?

Z: I do. Because we were talking a little bit about the inauguration, and one of the many things that may change going forward under the Biden administration and Democratic-controlled House and Senate is potentially a pretty fundamental change to minimum wage laws in this country. The minimum wage is $7.25 an hour at the federal level. And it hasn’t gone up for over 20 years, I believe. And I don’t want to get into a whole long conversation about why that is. Other than that, it’s f****** ridiculous that the minimum wage has not gone up in that amount of time. And obviously, there are lots and lots of states and localities that have higher minimum wages. I live in one of them. You do, too. But at the same time, raising the federal minimum wage obviously has a big impact because it’s the floor for anything. And specifically, this proposal would also get rid of the idea of a tipped minimum wage, meaning in places like New York and a number of other states — although not here in Washington — you can pay someone less than minimum wage at an hourly rate if they are making enough money in tips to get to that level or above. And there’s been a lot of outcry from the restaurant industry, from really certain parts of it, that this kind of proposal would greatly harm restaurants, small operators, etc.,  including the National Restaurant Association. And I will let you give your thoughts, but I will say concisely at the moment that to me that is total bulls***. And it is a particularly kind of heinous and pernicious lie that the restaurant industry has told for a very long time, and I’m happy to explain why in a moment. But I want to give you a chance to talk, because I have my perspective. I was paid an hourly wage for the majority of my life. So I have strong feelings about it as someone who made essentially minimum wage for quite a number of years.

A: Yeah. I mean, so I think it’s criminal that the minimum wage has been what it’s been. So I completely agree with you. I want to talk about this on the basis of just being a business owner. I think what is lacking — I’m not saying that my path was the path for everyone. I’m not saying that. But I guess what I’m trying to say is, I think that there has been a thesis over the last 10 to 15 years coming out of Silicon Valley, coming out of a lot of other places, that “education doesn’t matter” and that entrepreneurs should be able to do whatever they want, and everyone should just start businesses. And I worked at a business that went under. It wasn’t mine, but it was a record label that I loved dearly. And I was there when it went bankrupt. And so for me, I really wanted to understand how you start a business. So I went back to business school. And I learned about accounting, and I learned about business plans and PNLs and budgeting. And what I also learned is if the business can’t make money, you shouldn’t start the business. And I think that there is this idea that anyone should be able to have a business with all of this, like “gig economy.” I’m f****** sick of the gig economy. It’s not sustainable. It doesn’t take care of humans. Have you looked at f***** Door Dash’s stock price recently? It’s insane. It’s f***** insane. I’m just saying. And the people who are running Door Dash who are actually doing the deliveries are making nothing. And the restaurants aren’t making money. Nothing. This is unsustainable. And this is my soapbox to get to restaurants, which is there’s a lot of these people who have models that are sustainable, and others that don’t. And when you sit down and you decide you want to open a restaurant, you’ve got to look at the model and say, can we afford to pay people a living wage with the food we want to sell and the prices we want to charge and all those things? And if we can’t, then maybe we can’t have a restaurant, or maybe this restaurant model doesn’t work for this place. I don’t know how else you do it. We are going to have to raise the minimum wage in this country. We haven’t raised it in decades. It needs to catch up with the cost of living. People haven’t had a pay raise, and everything else is going up. Rent is going up. Gas is going up. So this has to happen. And yeah, I think it’s bullshit. And it’s one of these things where it’s become this narrative that we’re all telling that’s being reinforced by these organizations, as you mentioned. And look, again, I’ve only ever worked — as we talked about in this podcast a lot — as a cater waiter. I’ve never been in a restaurant. I have lots of friends who are restaurateurs. I understand it’s a really hard business. I do not want to be in their position. I think anyone who opens a restaurant is crazy. I love eating at them, but I think it’s crazy. Right? Because it’s so hard. It’s so hard to make a living but yeah, some people really do it to great success, to great success. And a lot of people who do it to great success, too, that I’ve found, have really happy employees. And usually, it’s because their employees are taken care of. And I think it’s unfortunate that we have to force the rest of the country to take care of their employees. But I think it’s the only way we are going to ultimately have a successful restaurant industry and a healthy restaurant industry, especially coming out of Covid. But again, I’ve never worked in a restaurant. So I’m curious, the stuff that I’m saying, is this resonating, Zach? Am I crazy to *say, “Well, look, if you can’t afford this person, then then you can’t have a restaurant.” Is that just me being a mean old business person being like, “Well, look, the numbers don’t work, so go f*** yourself.” Because that’s kind of how I feel. You’ve got to look at the numbers. If the numbers don’t work, the numbers don’t work. But other people would say that’s not fair.

Z: Yeah, well, I would say a couple of things. One is I’ve never owned a restaurant myself, so I will speak at this from my perspective, as someone who’s worked at a variety of different levels throughout restaurants and been pretty involved in opening them and understanding some of how they work. But it’s never been my money on the line, it’s never been my name on the business license, etc. So take that caveat. I don’t think you’re wrong at all. And I think that actually one of the biggest issues we had in the restaurant industry, pre-Covid, was every last person who had a little bit of knowledge, a little bit of maybe some acclaim or at least a little bit of attention and some backing could open a restaurant. And many of them were just never going to succeed. I have been to, I have been offered jobs at, I have dined at so many restaurant concepts that were just so clearly not thought out by someone who understood anything about how a business is profitable. By people who maybe had really, really great food, great bar programs, great wine programs, all kinds of things. But in the end, what they were doing was not going to make money. And then as it turns out, if either it’s just you or your family or you have investors, somewhere down the road you have to make money. And you might have a longer or shorter runway depending on how you’re financing things. But it is not infinite. And as you said, no business concept is entitled to be profitable just because you like it. And one of the most important things to recognize here is that one of the reasons why the tip economy and “tipping” as a function in the American restaurant industry has persisted as long as it has is it served a very useful function for restaurant owners because they didn’t have to pay their front-of-the-house staff very much. And that meant they didn’t have to pay payroll taxes on what those people were making. That is a huge reason why tip culture has persisted as long as it has, because — we’re not going to have a whole conversation about tipping, I don’t think — but tipping is a part of this whole issue, right? It is cutting out the restaurant, and the restaurant owner, and the restaurant ownership, from compensation for a big chunk of their workforce, which is, frankly f****** insane. I mean, again, it’s not how any other kind of business works. I don’t go to the grocery store and decide that, I don’t think the person at the seafood counter did a good enough job picking out my piece of salmon, so I’m not going to tip them, and they don’t make money. That is an insane business concept. The owner or operator of any business should want to have control over their employees’ wages so that they can compensate them adequately and ensure that the person who is working for them’s goals are aligned with their own. And so, there’s this whole long, sordid history of restaurants and restauranteurs underpaying people, underpaying undocumented workers, threatening to report them to ICE or INS before that. There’s just so many things that go on when people are not paid a living wage: no healthcare, people working sick. I mean, think about how crazy that sounds now to us in this Covid landscape that I and everyone I worked with would show up to work when by any standards of the health department, we should have stayed home, but because there’s no sick pay in most places — that’s changed in some places including in Seattle — there’s no vacation time, there’s no policy that allows for someone who should not be working for whatever reason, health or otherwise, to stay home. Someone who’s just had a kid, there’s no paid parental leave. All these things, unless a local or state government has passed these laws, none of that is mandated at a federal level. And very few — some, but very few — restaurateurs will offer that as a benefit just on their own goodwill. And again, it just creates a persistent issue within the industry of people being absolutely on the brink of financial ruin for things that should not ruin anyone. You know, I’m not talking about horrific injury or terminal illness, or I should say potentially life-threatening illness or things like that. That shouldn’t ruin anyone, either. But those are at least huge problems that are hard to anticipate. But I’m talking about someone breaking their arm — a four-to-six-week injury, less than that, really if you’re not doing something really, really intense. And I’ve known people who were basically begging their coworkers to give them money because they had nothing saved because their job barely allowed them to pay for the cost of their apartment in Seattle or in San Francisco or in New York or whatever. We want restaurants in these cities. The people who work in jobs that are still employed right now, who are sitting at their computers listening to this, you want restaurants in your city. You want to be able to order food via these horrific parasitic apps delivered to your door whenever. But the people who make that happen cannot afford to live, not just in the city. In many cases, they can’t even afford to live within an hour. I mean, I was stunned by the end of 2020 how many people I worked with in Seattle who lived an hour, an hour and a half commute away each way. And these are people who are commuting home late at night. Some of them are people who might not be safe commuting late at night on public transit, potentially. There’s just so many issues. And it all stems from the fact that in some way, we societally have viewed restaurant work and similar service- sector work as being “less than.” And that is a fundamental issue that is not fixed by a raise in the minimum wage. But in some sense, it is because, you look at — God help me, Adam you know it’s a curse of mine that I look at Twitter too much. But look at all the people responding, all the people tweeting things like, “Well, why should I pay? Why should someone who’s washing dishes or someone who’s flipping burgers make $15 an hour?” As if doing those things is somehow any less noble a pursuit than whatever the f*** that person is doing with their free time — posting on Twitter, probably. And again, we want these things in our in our communities, whether they’re cities, towns, whatever. We want restaurants, we want the things that they offer to us. That means we have to treat the work that makes them possible as being worthy of a living wage.

A: I mean, look, I got a response to someone who tweets, “Why should I pay someone $15 dollars an hour?” It’s called rising prices, for everyone. So your price has got to rise too, bro — because I’m assuming it was a bro who tweeted at you. You may be making more money in your job. Right? So this person needs to, too, because the prices across the country are going up, and they’ve been going up. That’s what happens, right? Yeah, my grandfather used to be able to buy a piece of candy for a penny — that doesn’t exist anymore. That’s what happens. His salary was also a lot lower, because he could buy a piece of candy for a penny, and then my mom was able to buy a piece of candy for 10 cents. That’s it. That’s how economics work. And we’ve been stuck in a situation where a large portion of this country has not gotten the pay raise they need while other people have. And don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there’s a lot of people that listen to this podcast who are professionals, who also haven’t gotten a pay raise. And I understand that. And that’s why people are moving from cities to other places because of the lower cost of living. And it’s unfortunate that in certain cities, the cost of living has become astronomical. Like New York, like Seattle, like San Francisco. But the least we can do is raise the minimum wage across the country to something that is livable in a majority of places and probably still will not be in some. In New York, $15 is not going to be enough. Right? It’s not. But it’s the least we can do. And it makes up for bad nights. It makes up for less customers. And again, the restaurateur will then have to do a true economic model and really look at their P & Ls to decide, OK, how many employees can I have? What model works? And this is why we talked about this a lot: “How much do I need a somm, compared to just a server,” or, “Should I be moving to more of a counter-service model?” Are people more OK with that? Everyone loves fast casual. Would they like casual dining? Does that mean you walk in like we’ve talked about with Popina before. You order at the counter and you sit in the backyard. You have an amazing meal, and Popina only has to pay a few servers. That’s potentially an option that you can look at. I think, actually, this will create a lot more creativity in the restaurant world, because people will have to think about, OK, so what are people willing to pay for? What are people willing to pay for? Are you willing to pay for a $25 burger that’s a basic burger that has a slab of cheese over it, or, sorry, a $30 burger even, let’s say, and that you could easily make at home in the backyard or on your stovetop? So then if you go out, are you looking for a burger that really is special in some way? It has a special proprietary meat blend, or I don’t know, you baked the buns in house, or it’s on a bun that you wouldn’t think of, or it has more of a gourmet cheese, or I don’t f****** know. Right? So that you can charge $35. That’s I think what restaurateurs are going to have to think about. What does it feel like when you’re there? Does it feel really fun, and are the drinks fun, and is it a great atmosphere? And all those things are things that people will have to start thinking about once the minimum wage is raised. But the pushback against it to me is really cruel. Is really cruel because it’s basically saying, “I get to have a business that I want. Because either I’m willing to take the financial risk of taking out the loan or I know someone who can loan me to start the business or whatever, but I don’t have to pay people a $15 minimum wage. I shouldn’t have to do that.” That, to me, is like, “then maybe you shouldn’t start a business.”

Z: Yeah, and I think it’s also, to be fair, it’s not all on the side of the people who are operating these businesses. There is definitely a segment of the restaurant-going public that is, I would say, adverse, if not outright antagonistic, towards the idea of paying more for anything. And even when menu prices would go up at restaurants I worked at because cost of everything has gone up, not just the cost of rent, but the cost of the produce, the cost of meats, the cost of everything has gone up, and prices would have to go up even to sustain what was maybe not a perfectly healthy business model, let alone one that was actually somewhat profitable. And people would complain. And most people understood this is the deal. And it’s not like the prices were hidden. But every time, for at least some amount of time, people would complain and say, “Oh, well, you know, why is this steak this price when six months ago it was this price?” Or, “I can get it cheaper at my grocery store.” And I’m not going to have a whole conversation about how things are priced in restaurants. Again, that’s another topic, maybe some other day. But I will say that part of it is, as those of you listening who are not part of the restaurant industry, never have been, never will be but are diners or would like to be diners in the future. The reality is that there are exactly two ways this can go. One is that we can do things like raise the minimum wage. And that comes with, yes, somewhat increased pricing in some places. Again, a $15 minimum wage in Seattle wouldn’t make a difference. The minimum wage is already over that here. So it’s not as if that’s going to make an impact here. It’s going to make an impact in some parts of the country for sure, in some places where that might actually be a living wage. But it will cause all wages to go up, at least to some extent. And that means you’re going to pay a little more. It’s just the reality of it. Americans are still, even after the growth of the restaurant industry, still spending a lot less of their disposable income on food than many other developed nations. And that’s just the reality. Food is expensive. It’s literally difficult to produce. A cow is not something you just order on Amazon. And so that’s one path. The other path, and again, I haven’t heard a lot of talk about this. I mean I have, but not from anyone who is in actual power, is we look at a model that’s a little bit more like what is the case in a lot of European nations, where food costs are not all that high, but that’s because the restaurant industry is subsidized by the federal government, by their national governments. They recognize that in the same way that we consider lots of other industries or lots of other aspects of our lives to be important and not necessarily in need of being completely connected to profitability, like the arts, like public transportation, that restaurants and food service and those kinds of things are something that we don’t want to be solely driven by profitability. And as a result, we as a society broadly say, “Hey, you know what? There are lots of ways in which the government could subsidize the cost of doing business as a restaurant.” Could be lower rents for restaurants and for other comparable business uses. There could be subsidies on foods, beverages, things like that. Things that would keep prices down for the end consumer at a holistic level. And I personally think that is a better approach. Now, do I think it is likely to be something that is enacted by the current government? Probably not. But it’s something to bear in mind that either costs can be borne by the people who will be dining out. And there’s a segment of people who think, “I don’t want my tax money essentially to go to something that I don’t use.” You people suck, but you’re out there. Or we can say we consider food to be, and access to food in all the various ways — and obviously access to food for people who don’t have food is the most important thing. But I would say that the ability to go have a meal made for you by someone else in a relatively non-laborious and not incredibly expensive fashion is an unquestionable public good. And if it is, we have to treat it as such, and we have to subsidize it. That’s just the reality. That’s how things work in a society.

A: I agree, man. I think all of this is just something where I think the people who are at all critical of this decision need to just sit down, take a look in the mirror, and think about why. Because I think to the majority of us, I’ve gotten pretty passionate about it, you’ve gotten pretty passionate about it. At this point, it’s a no-brainer and there’s not a lot else to say about it. Right? And I think if you’re someone who’s listening to the podcast and you’re on the fence, I would encourage you to think about why you don’t think people deserve to make at least $15 an hour. Why don’t they deserve that? And what does that say about you that you feel that way?

Z: And if the answer is because I barely make more than that, then you also should make more money.

A: I agree.

Z: That is the thing here, right? Minimum wage applies to everyone. It’s not just restaurant workers, obviously. And yes, costs will go up some. But the whole point here, one of the conversations we are having in this country is there is an unfathomable and, frankly, unconscionable amount of wealth concentrated in the hands of relatively few people. And that is not something that any society throughout human history has been able to sustain for long because the rest of us don’t f****** like it. And you can get riled up about someone who works at a fast-food restaurant making almost as much money as you, or you can go ask your boss why you don’t make more money. And especially if they are someone who, or your business is doing real well — and there are lots of them out there right now — to me, that’s the question we all have to be asking. I mean, I don’t mean to make this overtly political, exactly. It’s hard to avoid with a topic like this. But fundamentally, if someone making $15 an hour threatens your own sense of self-worth from your salary or your hourly rate, you don’t make enough money, either.

A: Look, this is the first generation in history where the kids are going to make less than their parents. The kids in the work are now going to make less than their parents. That is insane. That has not been the story of America. That hasn’t been the story of the world, and that’s what we’re looking at right now. During the pandemic, the top 5 percent of the population made more money than they have made in the past. They’ve done very well. There needs to be an evening out here. I’m not calling for socialism, communism, whatever. I’m just calling for equity. I’m calling for some equity here. Also, that’s a population that eats out the most. They can afford to pay a little bit more on the menu so that people can make $15 an hour. And I think, that’s all there is to say, right? There’s a way that we can start to try to make everyone pay their fair share. There’s taxes that we’ve talked about. We don’t have to get into this here, because it’s not this podcast, as you said, Zach. But, the least we can do as lovers of food and beverage is advocate for people being paid at least $15 an hour. Full stop. All right, man, I will see you back next week. If you guys have thoughts about the podcast, as always, hit us up at [email protected]. We love to hear your thoughts. We got a great listener email earlier this week that’s actually going to turn into a topic for another show about whether, sort of on the same topic, sommeliers and bartenders should think about moving from cities to smaller towns and looking at opportunities there starting their own thing. Which is a topic Zach and I are really excited about. That’ll be coming either next week or in the weeks later. But if you have any ideas, always shoot us an email. We love to hear from you guys, and we love to hear your feedback — not only on this show, but also on things you want to hear. So again, [email protected]. And Zach, man, next week will you be drinking? No, since it’ll be Dry January.

Z: Well, I think when I’m recording, yes, I will still be sober. By the time everyone hears it, I will have had a drink.

A: Enjoy your bitters and soda, man.

Z: Sounds great.

Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair Podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now for the credits. VinePair is produced by myself and Zach Geballe. It is also mixed and edited by him. Yeah, Zach, we know you do a lot. I’d also like to thank the entire VinePair team, including my co-founder, Josh, and our associate editor, Cat. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.

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