Airing between regular episodes of the VinePair Podcast, “Next Round” explores the ideas and innovations that are helping drinks businesses adapt in a time of unprecedented change. As the coronavirus crisis continues and new challenges arise, VP Pro is in your corner, supporting the drinks community for all the rounds to come. If you have a story or perspective to share, email us at [email protected].

In this episode of “Next Round,” VinePair CEO and founder Adam Teeter sits down with James O’Brien, the owner-operator of Popina in Brooklyn. Like every “Next Round” guest before him, O’Brien has dealt with his share of difficulties as he restructured his restaurant to function during Covid-19.

While expanding to outdoor dining meant placing tables over a former bocce ball court, it also meant switching to counter-service dining. In a restaurant that prioritizes hospitality, a stellar wine program, and relationships with its regulars, this wasn’t always easy. Moreover, the changing weather has brought its own hassles in terms of rethinking the menu and choosing the perfect, no-hassle rooftop.

Throughout it all, O’Brien manages to stay positive as he describes these frustrations, and even opens up about his own experience in lockdown. After Popina closed for a month, he emerged and decided to be more mindful about creating a good work-life balance for himself and his team. This approach weighed into recent discussions about what to do when the winter sets in, as Popina is one of many “cozy” New York restaurants that has refused to seat guests indoors. All in all, O’Brien discusses his plans with a level of gratitude for the regulars who have helped keep Popina afloat.

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Adam: From Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter. And this is a VinePair “Next Round” conversation. We’re bringing you these conversations between our regular podcast episodes to give you a clear picture of what’s going on in the industry during the Covid-19 crisis. Today, I’m talking with James O’Brien, partner of Popina restaurant in Brooklyn, New York. James thanks so much for joining me.

James: Hey, thanks for having me.

A: So, I obviously am familiar with the restaurant. I think for those who don’t know about you guys, you’ve really, I don’t want to say quietly anymore, but really become a spot in the city that’s just become known for really awesome takes on Italian food. You do some really cool — I don’t want to call it fusion cuisine, but interesting mashups. Your Milanese hot chicken is ridiculous, but then also a just incredible wine program. And a place that lots of people who are wine geeks and people in the industry seek out to drink at. And that was well before all of this happened, but you guys have built this incredible reputation for yourselves as just having this amazing place where people can go and drink really delicious stuff. So for those who do not know about Popina, you gotta go check it out after this interview. But can you just give us a little background on the restaurant, and your background, and how you guys started?

J: Yeah, for sure. So we opened up Popina, myself and Chris McDade, who’s my business partner and the chef of Popina. He is originally from Georgia. So that helped create the food programming. He’s always cooked Italian food. I always worked in Italian restaurants, and he basically took up his upbringing, his nostalgia, and the ingredients of the South, but he applied them in an Italian context. So, we met at Maialino in Gramercy Park, one of Danny Meyer’s restaurants, and we just kinda hit it off. I mean Chris has an incredible work ethic, and that was one of the things that attracted me to continuing the conversation with him. And obviously he cooks delicious food. He’s a pasta guru. If he’s not actually cooking, he’s studying pasta, reading about it, learning new things. Whether it’s a traditional shape or technique. So he’s really into food in general, but obviously pasta is one of the strong suits of the restaurant. So we met, we worked over there. I worked all in a lot of Danny’s restaurants. I started at Tabla. When Tabla closed I went to Maialino and then I actually joined the team over at Marta for a little bit, before taking some time off and doing a year of travel. And when I got back, Chris at that point had moved back to Atlanta, then moved back to New York. And we linked up and we were just talking about what we wanted to do. And we overlapped on a lot of what that vision was. I mean, we started out with a ton of ideas, but at the heart of all of it was we wanted to create a neighborhood restaurant. It was important for us to create a space that could be a special occasion place, but was more a community gathering place where people could come and have a bowl of pasta and a glass of wine and not break the bank. And they can do it on a regular basis. So, that being said, we also wanted to make sure we were elevating it. More so than your neighborhood restaurant, in the food, the beverage, and also the hospitality. So, you come in, if you like ice in your water our staff would remember that. And, you would continue to create regulars, and create kind of “wow” experiences. But do it in a context that wasn’t forced and just kept people smiling. We started the restaurant with one goal and that was to like, make your day a little bit better. And if it could be a lot better, that’s even better. That’s even greater, but we live in New York City, and it is so tough, right? Everyone’s just trying to make a living and get by. And sometimes it’s hard and it chases people out. And I think that food is super powerful. And if people could come into our restaurant and kind of forget that they just worked a 12-hour day, or maybe they’re thinking about their rent bill, or thinking about a bad subway experience, or whatever it could be. If we could transport you and make you forget about the everyday worries of living in New York and just make your day a little bit better with a glass of wine or a bowl of pasta, then that’s our goal. And if we could build on that, even better. But it’s as simple and as complicated as that.

A: That’s really, really cool. And so obviously, the restaurant has been around for a few years and has been really doing well. You guys have had a bunch of really cool winemaker dinners and things like that. Can you take me through what has gone through your head and how you guys have changed, or done different things since basically March 13th? So I think March 13th, everything across the country changed for a lot of people, for most people, and especially for restaurants and bars. So I’d love to get an idea of what you guys have done, and take us from that point to like where we are now, basically.

J: Yeah. So in March, a lot of other restaurant owners had to let go of their staff. And it was a crazy year. It was our first January and February that we were busy. The last two winters were, if you came to Popina on a Wednesday, Thursday, pretty much any day but a Friday, Saturday in the winter, it was crickets, right? We excelled in the summer and on the weekends, but it was so difficult to get people in there on a Wednesday in January and February. And so we were feeling so good about that. And then basically, March was a busy time. Chris was cooking at the Food and Wine Festival down in Charleston. I was down there with him and then I came back to work at La Paulée with all the winemakers, which is crazy to think that that was in March. And that’s right before all this shutdown and just all those people together, sharing glasses, hugging.

A: Totally crazy.

J: Crazy. And then, fast forward, and we get to the 14th or somewhere around that date where we had a conversation with our staff, I want to say Thursday or Friday, that it was going to go to half capacity. And we said, we’re a small restaurant, guys. And we don’t think this is going in a positive direction. And we just want to be upfront with people. And we don’t think that half capacity works for us. Inside Popina, for those of you who have been, 36 people sat in there and seated. It was like sardines. Right? Hopefully it didn’t feel like that. Like, I feel like it felt more cozy than cramped. But yeah, we used to fit 36 people in there, but under these new Covid guidelines, it’s like even at half capacity it was just too close for comfort. We can’t really responsibly sit people in that space. And that kind of goes to our plan as of now, which is crazy that we’re talking about March and that was our mindset, and we’re still dealing with that same issue now that we can’t really use the outside space again, it’s a little colder. But we don’t feel like it would be responsible seating people inside under these circumstances. So we gave our team a big tip before we actually had to shut down. We gave our team the heads up and basically told them that they should start applying to unemployment and we gave them a little cash in hand, as like a little severance of sorts and just said, “Hey, hopefully this will float you just in case you have any issues with unemployment.” And also during the shutdown, we did I think two or three rounds of employee fund outreach. So basically, we had our guests donate. We didn’t do it through GoFundMe because I feel like they take a percentage of it, or at least that was my understanding of it. So we did it through our Instagram and our Venmo and stuff like that. So we raised some money for them, and everyone was so grateful. I mean, it wasn’t a ton of money, but just a little something. I think our staff was just pumped that we were continuing to look out for them, even though technically the likelihood of bringing them back was a long shot, at least in recent times. So then, we tried delivery for a week with a bare bones staff. Me, Mike, who is our executive sous chef, Chris, and Sean, who was the G.M. We were doing actually decent business because I think people just wanted to support us. Our delivery business, in general, is pretty terrible. We just don’t do a lot of it. Especially because we don’t do pasta to go. That’s one of Chris’s things that he just won’t bend on. At all.

A: I understand. If he doesn’t think it travels well, then he doesn’t think it travels well.

J: Yeah. That’s kinda what it boils down to. And we actually over time we’ve started doing some pasta kits and some other delivery alternatives. but as far as cooking pasta and putting it in a box, it’s just like not his thing. So we have to continue to think about creative ways to not do that, but still continue to try to make people’s day a little bit better. And when you can’t actually have people at the restaurant, we found that that’s incredibly challenging. So we do delivery for a week with the bare bones staff, things get worse, obviously everyone in New York kinda knew. If we think about late March, early April, New York was a scary place. And so we decided to call it. Then we cleaned out our fridge. We told our staff that if anyone wanted some things to take home, but when Chris orders he does an amazing job at basically ordering enough food for said service or two services or whatever. So there’s not a lot of extra food. Which from a business standpoint, I’m always like, “Man, you’re good.” Like this is awesome for business. But then when I’m rummaging around the fridge for an extra snack at the end of the night, that’s not always the best, but we had some leftover product. And any dried pasta we were using doesn’t really go bad, but like if people wanted the greens, we had some produce, we had some meat, and we reached out to our staff and we said, “Hey, if you want some food, come on by.” And I would go to the restaurant regularly just to check in. And one of the things that was super sad, but helped out a lot was I liquidated my inventory. I had probably close to 60K of wine inventory, and then in like two weeks, I brought it down to $10,000.

A: How did you do that? Did you sell to other restaurants? Did you sell it to customers?

J: I reached out to a couple of my wine regulars that I knew drank really well, and I had offered them some pretty good discounts with what’s still making money. I mean, there was this one guy that probably bought $15K of wine by himself, and he bought it all at list price. And I told this guy, he will forever have a reservation for a table in the backyard. I might even name the table after him and his wife, seriously. He continues to buy wine and he’s a wine collector, but the best kind where he doesn’t always talk about it. He just loves wine, and he loves really great wine. And he continues to buy. So it’s been great, especially with the loosening of the S.L.A. guidelines. So when he comes in to dinner, he’ll come in and spend a couple hundred bucks on dinner, but then before he leaves, he’ll pick up a case of wine and that helps us, especially on the rainy days. It’s either feast or famine with us. It’s either the backyard is jammin’ from 12 to 8 on a Saturday, the sun is shining. It’s amazing. Kind of like last Saturday, especially with all the good energy.

A: Oh, yeah. With the election.

J: Yeah. But then yesterday, it was raining and I saw three people yesterday, and you know what I’m saying? Like, we didn’t do any business yesterday. So those guidelines, although they’re annoying with the whole, like “we have to sell food” and all this it at least allows us a little bit of a lifeline. So basically, I sold a bunch of inventory to some of my wine regulars, and then just basically was like, “Hey guys, New York is a sad place. It’s probably going to get sadder. If you want a case of wine, come on by.” I also gave industry people who got laid off wine at cost and the whole idea behind that was it’s like these people lost their job, but they still need good wine and stuff like that. So I put it out there to our channels on Instagram or whatever. And I said, If you’re in the industry, and you lost your job, wine at cost. Whether it’s the $15 bottle of wine or the $100 bottle of wine, I don’t really care. And that also helped us decrease inventory. When you still have to pay rent, and do all these other things, paying all the invoices, a bottle of wine is not going to really help you. So I liquidated a lot of that, which again it was sad because it was three years of me building up what I thought was an awesome list with back vintage this, and this rare wine from here. And it was sad to let it go. But I know they went to good homes. And I really like when I open that bottle for somebody and they drink it with the food at Popina and you see this reaction and you create this special food and wine experience. And when you sell it retail you just hope that they served it right. Or they enjoyed it as much as they would if they were at Popina. So basically after doing that, I just took a break. Like, I took a month, and it was kind of wild. I don’t think besides traveling throughout the last couple of years, if I took a big trip, or took that year off and just traveled, I haven’t stayed at home. And I was actually super scared, and I had to like buy a spice cabinet. I didn’t have salt. My fridge was Champagne, white wine, and hot sauce. I didn’t have anything else. So I’m building a spice cabinet. I’m taking the stickers off my pots and pans. I live by myself, and I was super scared of “what am I going to do with all this time?” I had to update all my Hulu or Netflix because I get home from work and I go to sleep. I won’t spend a lot of time at home, and I was kinda nervous about it. Chris was super pumped, ‘cause he has a 2-year-old, and he was just pumped to be at home with the kid and have some family time. ‘Cause in our industry, it’s a tough thing to come by. But for me I was just like, “Oh s***, I don’t really do well by myself,” or at least I didn’t think I would. But it was awesome because I was in New York. I got to read a book that wasn’t about wine, or I got to learn Spanish. I got to start doing yoga and do all these things that I’m always like, “I’m too busy for it.” I wake up and I’m back on this grind, unfortunately, where I don’t give a lot of me time, but I wake up and I’m like, “I got to go to work.” And then I work until my eyes are shutting and then I go to sleep, you know what I’m saying? So, the month was great, obviously a lot of s*****, I don’t really mean great, but it allowed me to have this time and really hopefully take advantage of it and put in a little self-care, which I think is hard in our industry. And I think if there was anything that came out of this is I think, I’m going to try to be more mindful about myself and my team, creating a good work-life balance and a healthy lifestyle where people don’t feel like they just need to grind it out all the time. But as a business owner, it’s hard, because every day I wake up and I’m like, “OK, no one’s going to hand this to me. I have to go out and get it.” And it makes you motivated.

A: Well James, at any time during this period, were you freaking out about — I mean, I assume you guys felt pretty comfortable where you guys were as a business. ‘Cause at any time were you freaking out about, “Well, what about our landlord? Could we get evicted, or what’s going to happen?” I don’t know if at this point, PPP, everyone was talking about it, but I know none of us knew if we were going to get it. Was that all happening too, or, were you pretty confident that you could manage it to get to where you’d maybe be able to reopen?

J: Well, our landlord was really great throughout this. He didn’t necessarily give us any rent concessions or a discount on rent, but he made us aware that he was there. And he actually got engaged at Popina, which was pretty awesome. And I think he just wants us to be around, especially because there are a couple of restaurants in his spaces that are shuttered. And I think he helped us. And one of the first things that I actually did is we had a driveway space next to us that used to belong to Pok-Pok when we took over the lease. But then we actually were like, “Oh, we don’t want this driveway.” And Pok-Pok was still on the corner. So they kept the driveway space. And, long story short is there was this empty driveway. And I asked him, I was like, “Hey, can we get that driveway?” ‘Cause this was in March, so I had no idea what it was going to look like. I think a lot of people were like, “Oh yeah, by summertime, we’re going to be good. Back to normal.” But I was just like, outside space is going to be the biggest, hottest commodity. So, I’m like, we need this outside space. So I called him, and I think he was already on the defensive because other businesses were calling him like, “Hey, Greg, can I get a discount on rent?” And I was like, “Greg, I’m not asking for a discount. I just want the driveway space next to it. It’s been vacant for a year. I know it’s not our space right now, but if we could attach that to our lease at a reasonable rate, hopefully, free rate, that would help us. That would make us so much more comfortable going into this uncertain period.” And he agreed to it. And so we took over the space, and basically that space has allowed us to spread out the tables this summer and we created a very different service model than we used to do at Popina. So Popina used to be full service, and now we’ve pivoted to a counter service. We didn’t want you to walk into Popina, go into the backyard, and have this QR code here, and have like a very “airport” kind of experience, right? Where you’re ordering through an iPad or your phone or whatever. Like as much as safety was our biggest concern, we wanted to have at least one “Hello,” you know? So the guests walk into Popina, “Hello, welcome.” And then they order their drinks and their food, and then we give them their drinks, and then they take a number. And they could sit anywhere they want in the backyard, which also allows different people to have different comfort levels. So if you want to be at this table, in the corner where no one will pass you or anything, that’s cool, grab that table. If you want to be closer to the door so you could reorder, cool, grab that table. So, we’ve done that, and we’ve set up the wine shop where people could come in and just grab their bottle. So we wanted to basically take less from the full-service model of giving more is actually giving less. So we wanted to have that “Hello” point, but then we want to say, “Hey, once you’re in the backyard, we’re just going to bring you food.” And it’s evolved. We used to bring people’s stuff in to-go containers. And then one day we were like, “Hey. Maybe we should put it on plates.” And then it was plates with wrapped-up silverware, and then we’re like, “Hey, maybe we should give people real silverware, because those knives don’t really seem like they’re cutting the chicken.” So it’s evolved a lot into what it is right now. And you know, we’re still asking ourselves, “How could we do this better, beyond the guest side of making it easy and comfortable?” So it’s continuing to evolve, for sure. But right, now we are in this sweet spot where I think a lot of people really like it, and there’s some people that don’t get it. And I think a lot of those people are the first timers who are probably reading old Infatuation reviews, but we have an amazing group of regulars who come every week and they love the system, and they know the system. So if you want to start with a cocktail, but you’re going to get a bottle of wine, get it all, you know, get it all. And we pop the bottle. We’ll give you your glasses, give you your cocktails. And then you literally don’t have to come back in. And then what we do is all the pricing includes a gratuity. We built it in because of this fast-casual service. And so if you don’t want to come back into the restaurant, we just close out. We close out your check, and everything’s good. It’s like if you went to a Superiority Burger or whatever. You pay up front, and then you’re good. You don’t have to come back in or anything. You could order your whole meal, and we still course things out for you. But, yeah, it’s definitely new to us, but we will likely change it going into the next spring or fall or spring or summer, but right now it works and people seem to dig it. And we don’t worry about turning tables, because we don’t take reservations. It’s first come, first serve. And yeah, it’s how we’re doing it right now.

A: So it’s really funny because you mentioned Atlanta earlier, and I lived in Atlanta for a little while, and there’s a restaurant I used to like when I was in my early 20s called FIGO Pasta, which was like this model. And it’s always been interesting to me that you never really found that in New York, so it’s cool that you guys have adapted it and moved to that now. Because to me, it seems like it does make a lot of sense and you have such a nice backyard, and kudos to you for being willing to do that, and figuring out what could work for your customers. I think that shows what everyone is having to do, which is try to change their models to make it work. What are you thinking about now? It’s November 12th, and we’re talking. We had a gorgeous weekend, as you mentioned last weekend, but it’s gonna start to get colder. The city has just passed the ordinance that you can’t stay open until past 10, as opposed to 11, which I don’t understand why Covid spreads further past 10 than past 11. And as you mentioned earlier, the space inside is small. In the winter, it actually feels super cozy, and that’s what makes it special. But obviously, no one wants to feel super cozy in a pandemic. Right? They don’t want to be right next to people. Are you guys buying heaters? Have you thought about that kind of stuff? Have you thought about trying to cover parts of your backyard? What’s going through your mind?

J: Yeah. Pretty much all those things. So, we’ve had like a million plans. And we always come in and we’re like, “OK, well maybe how about this? Or how about that?” And we always decide on something and then things change. I mean, the fact that it was 70 degrees last weekend, it was kind of crazy. So the plan right now is we ordered heaters two months ago. They just got here last weekend. It’s, a pain in the a**. And now we’re faced with, OK, we want to start using the heaters, but now we’re trying to jump over all the hurdles and obstacles related to getting them going with the fire department. One thing that Chris and I always agree on is we always want to do things the right way, and sometimes that’s either expensive or time-consuming. And right now, it’s like doing everything properly with the FDNY and the registration of the heaters and the placement of the propane cage and getting a fitness test related to using the propane heaters. So we’re doing all that stuff, but it’s very time-consuming and expensive. And, part of us sometimes are like, cool, we’re over in Red Hook. Let’s just take a chance, and are they going to really come to get us? And then, and then we think maybe if we owned the restaurant and didn’t have any investors, but then we’re like, cool. Our pool of investors are a little bit more prudent. And we just want to make sure we’re making the right decision for them. And so the heaters are to be determined. Hopefully, we could get all that stuff squared away, but the one thing that we didn’t notice, the weekend of Halloween, it was super cold. And even if we had heaters, the food gets cold. And then when you’re doing pasta, it’s like sure, people might come out and dress warm — throwing their long johns on or whatever — but what’s the deal with the food? And we want the food to be good and delicious and hot, you know? And so that’s the latest conversation I’m having with Chris, is “How do we create a menu without getting far from what we do?” ‘Cause if we don’t do pasta, then pasta is one of the things that people come for, and if we don’t do pasta, then our menu changes, and then are people coming to Popina for that stuff? And that’s the challenging part. Figuring out the food. So, yesterday I actually had somebody come by and quote me on a retractable roof, which I think I will have to sell way more wine or maybe even like a body part to afford. But it’s long-term, and we’re trying to link up with our landlord to see if he has any interest in either splitting the cost with us or doing something that will allow us to afford to do it, because Popina is not covered in the backyard. So basically anytime it rains, you’re kind of screwed. We work with a tent company when people have events. But it’s like $1,700 every time you want to put up a tent. That’s a lot of money, especially because when we’re selling events, we’re not charging people that much to have our look, have the space, and the food, and the drink. So it’s like that tent could double the price of your event real quick. So we’re considering that, and looking into other alternatives. Unfortunately, everything is either kind of shoddy and cheap, or very expensive. And if there’s anyone out there that has any good recommendations on outdoor coverings — and that’s the tough part too, our backyard. We don’t want there to be a tent around it all the time, because part of being outside is you want to see the sky and the tree and all that. So we’re trying to figure out how to cover it, and I’m also not trying to put up a big-a** tent every time I think it’s going to rain.

A: That’d be the worst. You’re running out into the backyard. You’re getting all the stakes. You’re like trying to build the tent as fast as you can. Yeah, that would be the worst.

J: Yeah, no, I got enough stuff to do. And so we’re trying to figure that out. We actually are considering closing for January and February and just going on a little sabbatical of sorts.

A: Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of restaurants were considering that.

J: Yeah. And I was fighting against it, it was actually Chris’s idea, and I was like, “Chris, we need to be there for our people and our community that have supported us.” And I was super against it. ‘Cause I’m just like, we got to figure out a way to keep the lights on, and if that means reducing salary or whatever I have to do to make that happen, I’ll do it. But then I thought about it, I played it out in my mind and it’s like Chris boxing up to-go food, me trying to sell some wine — if the S.L.A. keeps restrictions loose. And I didn’t see us coming out of this, maybe better financially than closing, but not in the best spirits. A lot of people that stayed open for delivery since March, they were like, “Cool. I was the most expensive to-go boxer in all of New York.” And I don’t want us to grow to resent doing the delivery or just the restaurant in general. I want us to be excited about it and go back to that time in April when we took off. I also want to be able to think about things outside the everyday running of the restaurant. Sometimes I’m like “s***, I don’t think about the long-term plan, because there’s not enough hours in the day, because I’m putting in orders or making sure we’re staffed or whatever it is.” There’s not enough hours in the day. So if we close down, that would allow us to think about the long-term business or “how do we revamp the backyard?” Since summer’s our strongest season, right? How do we basically make it into the most efficient, profitable, situation that we could? And right now, if we’re just going to be doing the grind of the everyday, it’s hard to think about that kind of stuff. So, we’re considering closing for those couple months. And obviously it sucks, because rent is still due and all those things, but I think it will give us a different way to look at business, and hopefully just get re-inspired and dive into those creative thoughts of what the future looks like. There’s a restaurant, I think they’re called The Willows Inn, that I think they do that every year. In the winter, they just close up shop and then they go travel and do this and do that. And they work so hard during the rest of the year, that they’re like, “Cool, we’re going to take a couple of months off.” And again, we’re way different. We’re a neighborhood restaurant, but I think we’re still trying to think about how to make people’s day a little bit better and how to revamp the food program and the wine program or think about creative partnerships. You know, maybe we’ll have a Popina wine or a beer on tap. These are things that I always wanted to pursue, but there’s just not enough time, because I am checking in a delivery or ordering our dry goods or whatever it is. And so, I think we’re leading towards that, but if we could get our S.B.A. loan and we could get this retractable roof that we could actually use year-round, and stay open January, February, that’s also not a bad alternative, too. So, the plan is right now to close for a couple of months, but who knows? We’ve made changes before. And one of the good things about being a little shop is we can make these decisions day to day. We don’t have to make an announcement. It takes less to steer the ship, you know?

A: Yeah. Well, James, it’s amazing how much you guys have adapted and how well you have adapted. And this has been just like a really interesting conversation to hear what’s happening with you, but also hopefully gives other people listening some perspective on what’s happening for neighborhood restaurants and how neighborhood restaurants are figuring out how to make it work. So I really appreciate you taking the time today, obviously also understanding that you’ve basically given me almost an hour to talk about this when there’s probably a lot that you need to do as you, as you mentioned throughout the podcast. So thank you so much. This has been really awesome.

A: You’re welcome. We wouldn’t be able to do without people like you, so I really appreciate you coming on. And I can’t wait to see you at Popina again soon, definitely a few times before you guys close for January and February, but I support the decision.

J: All right, my man.

A: Thank you, James.

J: Have a good one.

Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair Podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now, for the credits. VinePair is produced and hosted by Zach Geballe and me, Adam Teeter. Our engineer is Nick Patri and Keith Beavers. I’d also like to give a special shout-out to my VinePair co-founder Josh Malin and the rest of the VinePair team for their support. Thanks so much for listening, and we’ll see you again right here next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity

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