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January is traditionally a time for contemplation, reflection, and reassessing of priorities. Even though January 2021 is unusual in many ways, many people are still using this month to re-examine their relationship with alcohol, whether engaging in Dry January, or otherwise cutting back on consumption. At the same time, there’s a growing trend toward lower-calorie beverage alcohol products and more transparency about nutritional information on labels for products like beer and wine that have traditionally not provided that data.

So what exactly does it mean to practice mindful drinking? Why have those who are abstaining from alcohol typically been left behind by the beverage alcohol industry, and how might that be changing? Why are lower-alcohol, lower-calorie drinks emerging as a trend, and how can drinkers integrate these beverages into their lifestyles? Those are the questions that Adam Teeter and Zach Geballe tackle on this week’s episode of the “VinePair Podcast.”

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Adam: From Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter.

Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the “VinePair Podcast.” And Zach, it’s January. It is still Mindful Drinking Month. And that means we still have an ad for Mindful Drinking Month. So let’s get into it and thank our sponsors before we get into today’s episode, which is actually all about mindful drinking. If you’re aiming to cut back on calories and alcohol but still want to enjoy a delicious glass of wine, then Mind and Body Wines are your perfect solution. These low-calorie, low-alcohol wines are only 90 calories per serving and are vegan, gluten-free, non-GMO and made without added sugar. With Mind and Body Wines, you can sip without sacrifice and you can learn more at mindandbodywines.com. So Zach, before we start talking about mindful drinking, let’s talk about drinking in general or what you’ve been up to recently. What have you been tasting?

Z: So as mentioned on last week’s episode, I am not drinking in January, as is always the case for me — at least from a standpoint of having a beverage for consumption. But because of what I do professionally, there’s still occasional tastings. Obviously, much less, and I was actually talking to my wife about this the other day. Typically in January — when I was running beverage programs in restaurants, when restaurants were a thing that I was doing, January was actually a hard month for me in some ways, because it was usually the month when I really refreshed the wine program. In restaurants, typically, November and December are really busy. You don’t really have time to have tasting appointments. You’re just trying to get through the months and get through the holiday season. And you’re just reordering, if anything. And so January, for me, was always a month where I would do actually a fair bit of tasting and refreshing menus and lists — obviously not doing that this year. So the amount of wine that is passing through my world, even if I’m not drinking it, is significantly limited. But I do want to say that the one thing that I had relatively recently that I did try, which I really was interested in, and maybe a topic for a podcast down the road one day, is I think there’s been this interesting attempt to revitalize some historic California properties and some wineries — in this case I’m thinking of Louis M. Martini. I was trying some stuff from the Monte Rosso Vineyard, which is one of the iconic vineyards in California. It was planted in the 1880s, initially, and it’s one of those situations where, like, that was a property where when California wine was first coming on the scene, they were one of the top brands. They got sold, they got kind of commoditized. And recently, they are trying to step back out of that reputation as generic, inexpensive, trading-on-the-legacy-of-the-name wines. And so again, maybe we’ll talk about that more down the road. But I think there is this interesting thing where you see this with California in particular, a few wineries in Napa and to some extent maybe in Sonoma and a few other places, where there is really an effort to to burnish or reestablish the legacy of some of these truly monumental producers that just were turned into a commodity brand at one point, because that was what people thought of the wine industry in the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, whatever.

A: Yeah, I think it’s interesting. So it’s funny you bring up that winery, because they’ve submitted a few years now for tastings, and it always does really well as they’ve had this sort of “rebirth.” I know a new company owns them, the largest wine company in the country now, actually, but they’ve actually done an amazing job with that brand.

Z: Well, it makes sense, because the thing that is true about several of these brands that have wineries that have attempted to kind of be revitalized is, in many cases, they still have some of the absolute best vineyard sites in California. That has not changed. But what had to change and what is changing in some of these cases is that the larger company that owns them is making a product that is a world-class wine that befits those world-class vineyards, not a brand that we can put on grocery store shelves for $30 a bottle all over the world. And that’s a pivot that’s been required. And I think it makes me glad for the sake of the history and the quality of the grapes that are coming off those vineyards, that that has been something that the value of which has been seen by very, very large wine companies.

A: Yeah. I think it’s important to see to what some of these other really well-known brands in the next few years do as they’re also changing hands. There’s a bunch of things — we can talk about it on another episode because it’s probably too much talk about for our intro.

Z: It’s more than banter.

A: But yeah, super interesting. For me, actually, I did break Dry January last night on a Wednesday. I was like, “You know what? I think I drink very respectfully. And we’ll talk about all that in a second. And I wanted a beer. And this brewery out of L.A., Highland Park Brewery, had sent me some of their beers, and I was like, well, I kind of want to do them the favor of tasting this beer now. And so I opened one of the beers, an India Pale Ale called Strata Aerobics, which I thought was just like a dope name and a beautiful label. And it was a delicious beer. And it’s nice to have a beer, have some dinner, watch a little TV. I’m flipping back and forth between two shows right now. Can’t decide, I can’t focus on just one.

Z: “Bridgerton” and?

A: No, that’s already been finished. I didn’t watch “Bridgerton,” just for the record. Naomi watched “Bridgerton.” I popped in and out of it. It’s a little too trashy for me. I respect what it’s doing, but I was not a “Gossip Girl” person, either, just not my sort of thing. And that’s basically how it was explained to me, “Oh, this is ‘Gossip Girl.’ But like in the 18th century.” I was like, “I’m gonna pass that up.” But do you have, like, shows you watch with your wife, and then shows that are like your own shows?

Z: I would say that we have our shows that we watch together and then she has shows she watches without me, including “Bridgerton.” I don’t have a lot of other shows outside of, I would say that on the rare occasions that on the evenings where she wants to watch something on her own, I watch sports. I watch basketball, which she has a limited tolerance for, but not a big one. Or actually for my birthday, she got me a Nintendo Switch. I have not had a video game console in many years, but I have been doing that. We play some together, but also that is sometimes my evening alone time activities.

A: That’s funny. I know we definitely have shows together, shows alone. Our two shows together right now are, and again, we only have one TV, like we only believe in having a TV in the living room. So it’s also basically we have shows Naomi watches alone, and shows we watch together. And then once in a while, I get to watch my own if she goes to bed early or whatever. But we’re watching together right now the NXIVM documentary “The Vow,” which is like, “whoa!” And then also “The Good Lord Bird,” which is amazing on Showtime.

Z: I feel like I’ve never heard of either of those. So I don’t know what that says about me.

A: “The Vow” is on HBO. It’s all about the crazy cult NXIVM that turned out to be a sex-trafficking ring, which is insane. And then “The Good Lord Bird” is based on the novel and it’s about the abolitionist John Brown. And it is incredible. And Ethan Hawke is just amazing in the role. So it’s a really, really great show. But that’s one of those shows that is hard to watch, obviously. It deals with a lot of very uncomfortable history in our country. So, we can usually watch one episode of it in the evening. And I’m like, “OK, we’re either going to watch something fun or go read.” And I just picked up a new book that I’m excited about that I’ve also been reading called “Up All Night,” which is the story of the history of CNN and how basically 24-hour news came to be that co-founder Josh Malin recommended to me. So thanks, Josh. But yeah, that’s what I’ve been drinking and up to. And I think it’s a good segue into the theme of this podcast, which is mindful drinking. And I think we talk about this a lot as an industry, but it’s always an important conversation to have. And it’s just how we approach it, and it always seems like January is the time when we reflect on this. And I think we do that for a few reasons. One, there’s not a lot of activity in January. You can kind of get away with unplugging a bit. There’s not a ton of places to go. There’s usually not a ton of meetings. Everyone’s kind of like head down, planning for the year. You don’t have a lot of drinks or dinners. There’s one holiday weekend, obviously, the one coming up, Martin Luther King weekend. But again, it’s usually a cold weekend. So you’re either skiing, or you’re probably kind of staying put. Right? You’re not going to the beach and just slammin’ Margaritas. So it’s a time that a lot of people have decided is the month that they sort of reflect on health in general. And I think also it’s when you start thinking about, “OK, March is close,” and March traditionally has always been a spring break month. I got to be in that bathing suit again, what’s that look like? So it’s always a good time to think about it. So I’m excited to have this conversation with you. I definitely have always, I think, because of the industry we’re in, I’ve always been aware of my relationship to alcohol and sort of understanding that it’s something that I obviously enjoy. It helps me unwind. I like it for social aspects, but also it’s something that I’m aware of that you can easily abuse. And so for me, it was always really important, especially as we started VinePair, that I knew there would be — not that I would count drinks — but that I would be aware of what I consumed in the evening. And that also, I knew that I was always taking a few days off, that like throughout the week I knew I wasn’t going to drink, like, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, or something. Sunday, Monday, Thursday. How have you approached it? Because on the floor, being in the restaurant, you hear about that a lot. There can always just be an excuse. So how have you sort of throughout your career approached drinking and drinking mindfully?

Z: That’s an excellent question. I want to say one thing really quick before I answer that. And that is in this conversation, I think we’re going to talk about “mindful drinking” through two different lenses, at least in my estimation. And one is this first one, which is about the relationship between alcohol as a substance and the controlled, safe use of it. And then there’s also drinking in a more sort of direct “health” sense in terms of, like, we’ll talk calories and stuff like that. And so I’m mostly for this part, going to focus on that question you posed, which is dealing with alcohol as an intoxicating substance and how that works. And I’ll say I reflect on this every year, and I’ve been thinking about it a lot this year because as I mentioned before, it’s the first year in a very, very long time — since I was in high school — that I’m not working in a restaurant in January, maybe one other year somewhere in there. But basically, I think that one thing that was very clear to me from my very, very early days in the restaurant industry, frankly, even before I worked in a restaurant growing up in and around restaurants is that in that industry, and the beverage alcohol industry more broadly, one of the real challenges is, it does not put up many guardrails for people when it comes to alcohol and certainly didn’t used to. This may be changing over time. I think outright intoxication at work is less tolerated now than it was when I was young and certainly even before I was in the workforce. But it’s very true that whether it’s restaurant workers or even, frankly, people in wine or beverage, alcohol production, media, et cetera, there’s a lot of access. There aren’t a lot of people asking questions or passing judgments, at least not to your face very often. And again, there are few guardrails and in many cases the guardrails that exist are broader, societal ones. And when you’re going over one of those, there’s real problems. And there aren’t a lot of mechanisms within the industry sometimes to keep someone from getting to that point. And so for me, when I was young, it became, I don’t mean to say that I was as mindful a drinker at 21 or 23 or 25, even as I am now at 37. But I do think that relatively early on for me, I recognized that one thing that was important to me was to not be the person that I worked with who every night after work it was four, five, six, seven drinks at the bar. Every time we went out, it was they wanted to get into a fight or broke down crying or wanted to have sex with literally anything, and all the kind of things that come with not just alcohol consumption, but sort of uncontrolled consumption. And I guess fortunately, unfortunately, had a lot of examples of people who without total abstinence could not manage alcohol consumption. And I think there’s a lot of people like that. And there are people like that in my family. There are people like that in my friend circle. And I’m grateful in a lot of cases that they’ve been able to come to that realization in some cases without tremendous cost to themselves. But it’s very true that one thing that this industry asks of people is, do you have really good boundaries around alcohol? Because there’s very little support to help build those otherwise. And that may be true in life in general. I can’t say certainly there are other professions in other industries where there’s a lot of drinking to deal with stress or drinking to deal with life or just people aren’t really asking. But this one is particularly pernicious because there’s almost an expectation that you drink along with everyone else, because it’s our job and it’s hard for some people to find that balance point.

A: Yeah, I think that’s really true. And I think you have to find it any way that you can, and you have to be conscious of it. And I think that’s what we both have tried to do, and I encourage others to do, which is when you think about what does “mindful drinking” mean, a lot of it does mean how do you acknowledge that what you are consuming is alcohol? And I think that’s the thing that we try to talk about a lot with VinePair, is that’s also the reason that we try to not take it so seriously in terms of some of the ways in which we can evaluate wines. Because at the end of the day, the reason that the majority of people are attracted to it is is because it’s alcohol. At the end of the day, we are humans, and humans have always sought out substances, as other animals do. And so I think that’s why it shouldn’t be taken so seriously. But that’s also why it should be taken seriously in terms of what the ingredients are. And I think that there’s a lot of ways that you can be OK with your relationship to it and you can train yourself to be sort of OK. And one way to do that, obviously, is to just make sure that two to three days out of the week you’re only drinking water, that all those other days you’re making sure you’re not consuming too much. But if you have a hard time shutting down, at least this has been for people that I know saying like, “OK, once I start drinking, I’m always going to want that next glass.” And then there are other options, right? There are things like “free” or otherwise non-alcoholic things like Athletic that you and Cat love, the non-alcoholic beer that you can sort of sub in. Or Fre, the wine that is the advertiser on the podcast this week. I think those are things that can help a lot of people to make those choices. And then it also does help to have those around when you have someone in your life who doesn’t drink. Because also you don’t want them to feel left out at all.

Z: And that piece, I think, is a really important one to mention. Because one of the really challenging things about the restaurant industry, about working in beverage alcohol more broadly, I think is that it’s really hard for people — and I think again, societally, too, but especially in that industry — it’s really hard to be the person who says, “You know what, I’m not drinking” or “I’ve had enough, but I still want to hang out with you guys. I still want to hang out with my coworkers after a shift. I still want to go out after work and hang out.” And I think it’s totally the case that we’re starting to see, as you discussed, some of the products and others, too, that are entering the marketplace that are saying, “Hey, look, we recognize that soda isn’t necessarily what adults, especially sort of health-conscious adults want. And that, frankly, the flavor profile may not be what you want.” And that we talked about this a couple episodes ago. I think there are non-alcoholic beverage options, but none of them quite do it for us, and they don’t feel, they don’t feel special in the way that even a non-alcoholic beer or wine can feel special. And maybe that’s just a linguistic trick that we play on ourselves. Fine. But I do think that that is very much the case. And I think that one area, and I think this is something that we both agree on to some extent, but I’m curious to hear your perspective, is sometimes I think these products get pigeonholed as only for people who don’t drink — whether they’re sober, whether they’re on medication, whether they’re pregnant, et cetera, that they are someone who does not ever drink. And this is only for them. And to me, I think one interesting part of this conversation is, is there a place for these beverages for the person who wants to intermix them with alcohol? That maybe they want to have two glasses of wine with dinner, but only one of them is going to have alcohol. Or they want to have three beers out watching a football game with friends, but one of them doesn’t have alcohol, and that we tend societally to be “all or nothing.” And in some ways, I understand when it comes to a substance as powerful as alcohol, that for some people the only answer or safe answer is nothing. Fine. But I think for a lot of people, the “nothing” side of it, that “no- alcohol” side has been so devoid of options that are interesting and tasty and sort of plausible facsimiles that it has created a space where a well-made product that meets those needs can really thrive, I think. It seems that way to me. I don’t know. What’s your read?

A: Yeah. I think that there is an opportunity here. So first of all, there’s obviously a need for there to be really well-made products in this space for sure, because there are so many use cases for it. And so I think it is this thing where I’ve talked to so many people, whether they aren’t drinking, have stopped drinking entirely, or they are pregnant or have other health issues — maybe it’s even that they’re on a certain medication they’re not supposed to drink on where they’re like, it’s kind of just boring to go out with people and only be like, “Can I have a soda water with lemon?”.

Z: Or the exciting bitters and soda?

A: Yeah, well, yes, exactly Zach. There are times when that doesn’t feel so great to be that person. And so to have those alternatives is really good. And the fact that there are people out there — creators, winemakers, brewers who are trying to make great-tasting alcohol-free is really interesting. I don’t know if you were paying attention to the Random channel on Slack today.

Z: I was!

A: But like, look, again, I’m not sure how large of a market there is that there needs to be a physical store in the Lower East Side, but the fact that this new store in the LES called Spirited Away opened where the entire store is alcohol-free products is really interesting to me. There’s got to be a large enough market there. And the liquor store minus the liquor, I think, is really cool and shows that there’s a lot of stuff out there right now and people trying to make these kinds of products for a wide swath of the population who is choosing not to drink at certain times, but doesn’t want to miss out on that experience of drinking.

Z: And that is a crucial piece. And I want to emphasize this, because for me, with the people I’ve worked with that I’ve known in my life who have real problems with alcohol, one of the biggest challenges for some of them has been feeling like they can’t be a part of a group that goes out and drinks because there’s nothing for them. Soda water and whatever is boring and anything else — that an impediment to sobriety or healthfulness for some people is really something as simple as they don’t get to have a special drink of their own. If they don’t want to drink iced tea, or they don’t want to drink soda or lemonade or juice, those are perfectly fine beverages. But not everyone likes them. They don’t want them all the time. They may not go well with food in some cases. So there’s that real impediment for some people. That’s just like they won’t make the choice between their social life and their health, and products that allow them to have both, I think, are really, really valuable.

A: I agree. The other thing I think is interesting that goes along with mindful drinking is thinking about this world of lower-calorie options. And that’s something also that I think a lot of people start to revisit during this time of year.

Z: Yeah, me, for sure.

A: Well, again, we talked about the bathing suit, right? So it’s like how do you get in shape? I mean especially in the pandemic, man. Like there were weeks in the pandemic where I was making two loaves of bread a week. That is a lot. So what do you think about that? And we’ve seen especially the explosion on the beer and the seltzer side, Michelob Ultra kind of led this craze for the lower-alcohol beers. Now, seltzer with White Claw and Truly have really taken up that mantle and really prominently placing the calorie counts on the bottles. And now you have wines like Mind and Body and others that are doing it as well. And I also think that’s important. I think the idea that people understand what the calorie count is, is important. If you are someone that is trying to have some sort of balance and measure what you’re taking in your body and then what you’re expelling in terms of exercise and burn and stuff like that. Those are useful things. And I think especially on the wine side, it is something where, we talked about this before, the clarity of labeling is something that the wine industry should stop being so afraid of. I think putting the ingredients, that doesn’t put you into the pseudoscience space. It actually just says, “Hey, this is what’s in it.” And, “Hey, here’s the nutritional facts about it.” I think that that’s important. Like here’s what 5 ounces of this wine is going to cost you in calories. I’d love to know that. A lot of us would love to be more aware of that when we’re consuming. And I don’t mean to just pick on wine. I think craft beer is guilty of it, too, because some of these crazy, hazy IPAs that you’d wind up drinking, you’d wind up with a thousand calories. And some of these beers are super high in calories. It’s like eating a liquid loaf of sourdough bread. And the idea that seltzer is leading the way here and putting calories on the cans is going to start influencing a lot of this moving forward.

Z: Well, I think especially when it comes to wine and you listeners know I love wine, I love the wine industry in a lot of ways. But one problem that the wine industry has is it is a little bit sometimes up its own collective a** about the idea that everyone who drinks wine is drinking wine for these sort of high-minded, aesthetic pursuits. And yes, there is a fair bit of that, but people drink wine, as you said way back at the beginning of this episode, people drink because of alcohol. And people want alcohol, and people want what it does to them. And some people do not want, or they care about a lot of other considerations besides only the most, whatever terminology you want to ascribe to it, but we’ll say “snobby” reasons. And so I think that there is absolutely and totally room for and real demand for that kind of factual information about any product that anyone is going to consume. Beer, wine, spirits, et cetera. And and so I think that, again, the wine industry makes this mistake a lot of assuming that when they talk to connoisseurs, they are talking to the entirety of the wine industry. Even if you look at what sells in the wine space and the vast majority of sales are not what we would describe as wines of incredible terroir. That’s fine. That’s fair. Like, in no country is that true. There’s a lot of generic-a**, massive geographic blends in Europe, too, that are hugely popular and hugely successful because they’re inexpensive, and they do what people want. And the same thing is true in this country, whether they’re from this country or other places. And so providing that information for people is very, very useful. It’s something the wine industry should have been doing long ago, at least in certain categories. And I think more than anything else, what is important here is what we were discussing with the non-alcoholic products but is, I think, also true with this, which is some of these products may not be what everyone switches to. There are probably beer drinkers who only drink Michelob Ultra, but I bet there are a lot of people for whom that’s a part of their beer-drinking regimen. They drink it some days or they drink it as a pacer beer with other beers that are maybe higher in alcohol, higher in calories. But it’s a way for someone to continue to do a thing they enjoy, but is not quite as costly in terms of calorie count et cetera down the road. And I think some of these wine products, their use cases, in one use case is definitely that. As a part of a drinking experience that maybe is more about the people they are with, the place they’re at, not 10 seconds of contemplation on every sip. And that’s again, that is not meant to be derogatory. That’s how the vast majority of wine is consumed. It’s not sipping and swirling, it’s not chugging. exactly, but it’s drinking it as it is intended to be consumed.

A: Right. I completely agree with you. And I think that’s what makes wine so pleasurable for so many people, is that it’s just fun. And so if there’s certain days when you’d like to have that fun without as much of the guilt, then I think it’s really great that there are now these options. And thinking about that from a mindful perspective is really important. I think, look, at the end of the day all of anything we do should be done with intention, right? So Mark Bittman used to talk about this a lot in his New York Times column, like “eating with intention,” right? And he had this whole movement of like “vegan before 4:00 p.m.,” and this idea that, if you were going to eat meat, that you thought about it when you did eat meat and you only ate it at select times during the day in order to not only be better for your body, but to to be intentional about what you were consuming and how your consumption was impacting the environment. Same with the idea of eating the type of seafood we eat. And you’re not trying to deplete the oceans. And I think the same is true with how we consume drinks. It should be completely equal. We should think about what we drink. We should care about where those products come from. We should care about how they’re made. And we should be thoughtful about how we consume them and when we consume them. And I think that that’s going to be beneficial to all of us. And so that’s what we try to do during mindful drinking month. And really just highlight the fact that these are products that are really fun to get excited about and to also think about and to think about from both a standpoint of who’s making them and why and also how are we consuming them and why?

Z: Yeah, and I think you make an excellent point about trying to be mindful, sometimes getting talked about only as like “abstention from,” right? And I think that is a mistake. I think mindful consumption is consumption. It’s not “no consumption.” And I think there are obviously people for whom no consumption is the only safe and correct answer. And to those people I commend them for making that decision, reaching that place, and staying there. But I think for a lot of people the thing that is true and that you started this episode with contemplating is, we are at the same time in a culture that encourages consumption without a lot of thought in a lot of areas. It’s not just food and drink — in everything. And I think I could say, speaking for both of us, we encourage, in general, that you think about what you’re doing. I mean, obviously if you’re spending your time listening to us, you’re reading VinePair, you care about what you’re consuming. At least in this space, if not everywhere. And I think that January is a great month to begin that process. But I would also encourage that it be a year-long pursuit and in some months it’s going to be a little more tilted towards less mindfulness or more consumption. And in other months, it might be tilted towards more contemplation, less consumption. That’s all good. I think balance is sometimes not all about the same exact thing every day or every week or every month. It’s about finding an equilibrium, but you can sort of oscillate around that equilibrium point. But it is true that I think I might consider myself a much better and more satisfied beverage alcohol consumer the more mindful I am. Even if sometimes that thing is like, “holy s***, I need a drink right now.” Because that’s balanced out by the times when I don’t have a drink.

A: Exactly. Look I completely agree with you, man, and I love your point that you made, which is there should be intentionality with everything. And it’s not just this. Right? I know a ton of people this month who are taking social media breaks. I spoke to a friend. I was like, “Oh, yeah, I’m doing like a somewhat dry January,” and they were like, “Oh, I’m doing a somewhat dry social media January.” Just like I find myself thinking “Why am I always looking at my phone when there’s nothing else to do?” “How do I stop that behavior?” And the same kind of ideas. And that’s all healthy. and that’s really good. And so I think it’s great that we’re having these conversations about them because we should have them as opposed to just sort of being like “Well, if I have these conversations, then what does that say? Does that say that I don’t like drinking?” No, I love wine, I love beer, I love cocktails. I love hanging out with friends. I love getting together and having drinks and being really social. But I think it’s also important that these same conversations happen, too. One isn’t the opposite of the other, if that makes sense, right? I know that a lot of people are scared to have these conversations, because they wonder if that means they have a problem. No, it absolutely does not mean that you have a problem. It actually means the opposite. So anyways, I hope that everyone has a lovely month of January. I hope that we all move forward with more intention and mindfulness. And Zach, I’ll talk to you next week.

Z: Sounds great.

Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair Podcast. If you enjoy listening to us every week, please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. It really helps everyone else discover the show. Now for the credits, VinePair is produced by myself and Zach Geballe. It is also mixed and edited by him. Yeah, Zach, we know you do a lot. I’d also like to thank the entire VinePair team, including my co-founder, Josh, and our associate editor, Cat. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week.

Ed. note: This episode has been edited for length and clarity.