This week, Jake goes out with comedian Honey Pluton. The two discuss the shame of waiting in lines, why they could’ve worked for QVC, and why Lady Gaga made Jake cry at a wedding. Tune in for more.
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Jake Cornell: There was one time when we accidentally didn’t cut stuff out. We weren’t talking sh*t, but I was like, “If we had been talking sh*t, it would have been so bad.”
Honey Pluton: Career over.
J: Personal, yeah. There was one other time, I still get anxiety when I think about this, where we were doing a remote recording for an episode and they hung up on the Zoom call, but I didn’t realize they were still on the audio recording so they could hear everything. And thank God, I was like, “Oh my God! They were so fun. That was so great.”
H: Can you imagine?
J: She was like, “Thanks so much for having me.” And I was like… Because if I had bad-mouthed? It’s like, do you know when you just realize that there was an opportunity for something really bad to have happened?
J: In that way, where it’s like, “I could’ve been caught being a really bad person.”
H: My girlfriend recently did the most cardinal sin, which is that she screen-shotted a conversation she was having with someone and instead of sending it to me and sent it to that person. And I literally fainted and threw up. I was like, “I do not accept what just happened. I don’t claim that. I do not claim that.”
J: Don’t tell me that you did that.
H: No. I returned back to sender. I don’t want that in my energetic force field.
J: Did they-
H: She was like, “Okay. This just happened. I was going to send it to Honey, because we were going to discuss how this behavior is actually a pattern of yours that we’ve talked about before.” She really lesbified this. Do you know what I mean?
J: She was like, “I have to do everything in my lesbian power to fix it.”
H: Absolutely. Where she was just like, “I did this, but it’s actually because your behavior is so problematic that I had to talk about it with someone else.”
J: So it’s gaslighting, but lesbian.
H: Exactly. It’s the way that your therapist gaslights you. Do you know what I mean? I’m just psychoanalyzing why I’m being such a c*nt.
J: The term gaslighting is over. We can’t use it anymore because it’s…
H: No, because we all do it to each other.
J: No. At this point I’m like, “It’s all gaslighting.”
J: We’re all just trying to perceive reality and connect with other people about it and convincing them that they’re seeing the same reality as us.
H: But that isn’t actually possible.
J: Saying good morning is gaslighting.
H: It absolutely is. Because to who?
J: To who?
H: To who?
J: You’re projecting that on me.
H: Absolutely. There is no subjective reality.
H: No. There’s no objective reality.
H: So everything is gaslighting. The ketamine therapy is working, currently.
J: Yes, yes.
H: I’m ready.
J: I believe in ketamine therapy and I believe in ketamine. They should not have publicly told the gays that ketamine therapy was a thing being done professionally, because now I’m sort of seeing bathroom ketamine therapy.
H: Absolutely, literally. It’s like, “Call this number, I will help you work through your daddy issues. Just Venmo me, $45 an hour. That’d be great. Thank you.” Also on my way here, we’ll start the interview in a second.
J: This is it. We’re doing it.
H: Great. My walk here from Union Square to… This is also where my therapist is.
J: He’s doing it in person?
H: Yeah. He’s on 19th, between 5th and 6th, so I’m around here often. But another phenomenon that happens in this part of Manhattan, especially, is that there’s always a lot of people waiting in line.
H: And I always ask, “What are you waiting in line for?”
J: What are you waiting in line for?
H: Because I think that waiting in line is a cardinal sin. I would rather be actually shot than have anyone see me waiting in line for something. Being that publicly vulnerable to capitalism’s throws is so embarrassing.
J: Excuse me. Can I tell you the two times it’s happened to me that I’m in the darkest?
J: I literally think about these all the time and they are haunting to me. One time I walked up to… It was also at night. I was leaving work and this was when I bartended in Times Square. Cursed.
H: Oh my God! Trauma.
J: We’ll talk about it, we’ll talk about it.
H: That’s so traumatic.
J: Okay. So I leave work and there is a line down and around a block, and it’s like 1 a.m. So I’m like, “This is for what’s happening in the morning. This is that early.” Do you know what I mean?
J: I walk up to this woman in line and I’m like, “Hey, what are you guys in line for?” Just because I need to know.
H: I need to know.
J: She looks at me like I have literally asked her what air is. Literally looks at me like I’m an idiot and she’s like, “Tomorrow morning, the Balenciaga collection drops at H&M.”
H: No, no.
J: I was like, oh…
H: That is so eerie.
J: And I thought that would be the worst it ever got. And then, literally, maybe like two months ago, I’m in the West Village at my favorite frozen yogurt place, Culture, on 8th.
H: Okay. I’m going there after we’re done.
J: I actually frequently after I record here, walk down and get it. You have to. It’s so good.
H: Do you get to choose your toppings?
J: Yes. But it’s not like, “Bukkake gangbang of toppings.” It’s like, “You’re paying per topping.”
H: The cis woman inside of me screams every time I enter a frozen yogurt emporium. I go ham. I’m like, “Mochi balls, white chocolate sprinkles.” I get excited. Continue.
J: They also do something, part of why they’re so amazing, is they do this thing. You tell them your toppings before they pour the ice cream and they put a layer of it in the bottom of the cup and then the fro-yo goes in.”
H: Literally, I just started ovulating. I need that.
J: Wait. So I’m in the West Village. I’m in the West Village at my favorite frozen yogurt place. I get my frozen yogurt, I look outside, there’s a line all the way down 8th Street, and I’m like, “What is this?” And then I walk up and I’m like, “What is this line for?” And this woman goes, “There’s a vending machine at the end of the block that’s giving away free KIND Bars.”
H: That broke me.
J: And that broke me, and I was like, “You all have the same vaccine side effects. What is this?”
H: That broke me, that broke me. Wait, wait. Remind me. KIND Bars are the ones that are rectangles?
J: Yeah. That’s all bars.
H: But they’re very thin rectangles and they’re oats and chocolate chips rolled together.
J: They’re a Kudos rebrand. Do you remember Kudos from the ’90s?
H: Kudos were good as f*ck.
J: It’s like the healthy reboot of Kudos. There’s no M&Ms, but there’s chocolates.
H: There’s a drizzled chocolate.
J: And you’ll see a whole almond with a glaze on it.
H: And it’s bound together by epoxy.
J: Epoxy. They have epoxy, a hundred percent.
H: Epoxy in them. And you take a bite, and my cavity comes ripped out, unhinged.
J: The crown removed.
J: Also, they cost $2.
H: You can buy one, you can buy one.
J: I’m like, “This line is going to take an hour.”
H: Go to a CVS.
J: Value your time in this life enough to pay for the KIND Bar and not get it from the free vending machine.
H: I have RxBar and KIND Bar trauma from being a young adult anarchist, where that’s just all you could subside on. Hey, do you know that I lived in Seattle in 2020? Did you hear about CHOP or CHAZ around here, which was the autonomous anarchist zone that happened during the uprising, where people just squatted and lived in this four- block radius, and just existed on KIND Bar drops that people would steal from the grocery store?
J: Did you live there?
H: I didn’t live there, but I would spend time there, and work there, and protest there. But now a KIND Bar, it just reminds me of being tear-gassed and hearing the bombs go off. So now I’m like, “We don’t exist in this reality anymore. I need to have anything else; a Nutri-Grain bar or anything.” Are those the ones with the little jam filling?
H: Because those are dope. What are those?
J: No, no. Sorry. Those are Nutri-Grain. And then I was thinking of Nature Valley, which are the crumbles.
H: Nature Valley are the ones where it’s like you went to the beach. It lingers with you forever, and that you have a yeast infection.
J: Yes, yes, yes. You would.
H: It’s rolling around inside of you forever.
J: Yes, yes. When you ate them at school, you found them in your pants when you take your pants off at the end of the day.
J: That was a Nature Valley.
H: They’re why I have so many ingrown hairs. It’s not the right kind of exfoliation.
J: It’s not that. That’s improper exfoliation.
H: It’s the improper exfoliation. It’s like me eating a Nature Valley bar once when I was in 7th grade. F*ck my life.
J: You’re 45 and your dermatologist looks and he’s like, “You had a Nature Valley bar.”
H: You had a Nature Valley bar. I’m ready for the Dr. Oz study on that, please.
J: Wait, before we started recording, you were saying that you’ve already started squeezing all the serotonin out of your brain for Pride events.
H: I have.
J: Let’s talk about, are you going to…
H: Oh right, going out. This is about going out.
J: In theory, but we literally can talk about whatever we want.
J: No, we should talk about this. I feel like I always say that and I feel like VinePair’s probably like, “Please stay on topic.”
H: Actually, going out. That’s the verb.
J: It’s truly the name of the show. When you’re doing a Pride events, are we looking at a Dyke March moment, are we looking at a lesbian bar? Where is your journey on that?
H: I love a Dyke March. I love the Dyke March, especially the one here, I think the theme this year is black trans lesbians or trans lesbians in general, which is sick. And I love that. I love a radical Dyke March. I cry every time I do one. I’m even getting goosebumps talking about it. Genuinely, this is why I love Pride, and I refuse to become a Pride naysayer or someone who’s jaded about Pride. We have to love Pride. And when I do a Dyke March and I’m standing in unity with all of these lesbians that I know and don’t know, and we’re all chanting the same thing, and then there’s the old-ass Dykes in the beginning of the march on their bicycles, it literally brings me goosebumps and I’m like, “When the tower falls, I’ll have these people who have this alignment of values, and of morals, and what they want this world to see.” That really is the serotonin reboot and the dopamine reset where I’m like, “Okay. We really do have each other.” I’m always fu*cking working during Dyke March, and I was this year too. Historically, I’ve always done a Dyke March. But this year, going to the club, going to the rave, taking a little pressed pill and just becoming a… I just want to become ether. I just want to become gas and not have a corporal form, for 36 hours. And then my show, Honey Dew, is the Monday after Pride Weekend. So I’m going to have one dilated pupil. I’m going to be in sunglasses, in a British accent, full Lindsay Lohan.
J: Wait, this is an endorsement of the show. Though, guys, if you live in New York City, Honey’s show, Honey Dew, which is every other Monday at C’mon, right?
J: It’s at C’mon Everybody, which is one of the best venues. It’s so fun.
H: Amazing gay bar.
J: And amazing gay bar, amazing venue in Bed–Stuy. Honey’s show is so f*cking fun.
H: Thank you.
J: I say that as someone who watched it and then was on it. Incredible.
H: Thank you.
J: You do such a good job.
H: I love it. I love show. I love putting on show.
J: You are someone who truly, and when you did your show… The point of this interview is not to gas you up, but I’m going to do it. You are someone after your show. When you were not around, everyone was talking about like, “Honey is truly meant to be on stage.” It is naturally…
H: I love show.
J: It was what you were put here for.
H: Genuinely. Jake, to really have a podcast speak, that really goes back to when I was 12 years old. Do you know what I mean? The first time I knew I could do improv, genuinely knowing that I could be on stage, allowed me to not flunk high school.
H: I was like, “I need to at least have a C, so I can keep doing high school improv.” Because a C was the only thing keeping me going.
J: See, so I envy you right now because I… I’ve discerned this about you before. You feel to me like someone who by age 9 was like, “If I don’t give a sh*t about it, I don’t give a sh*t about it. I don’t give a sh*t about school, so I’m not going to give a sh*t about school.”
J: And I actually am so envious of that.
H: Why? How was that true for you?
J: Because it wasn’t true for me.
H: I got it.
J: I was obsessed with the idea of living in, and I still… Now we’re going to into therapy, but it’s like…
J: I’m someone who lives in fear of regretting something. So I’m constantly like, “I don’t want to regret that.” I don’t want to close any doors. So it’s like, “I’m very like…”
J: I’m very conflict-diverse because I don’t want to close a door with anyone. I’m very like, “I want to keep good grades so that door’s still open for me.” I was just so afraid of doing anything that will permanently close the door.
H: Scarcity, scarcity.
J: Scarcity. I was like, “I need to have good grades. I need to do…” But what that actually meant for most of my life, I think, this is actually maybe too harsh. But I think, in practice it was kind of this, it’s like, “I wasn’t doing my A- plus on anything. I was doing my B-plus on what was important, and then a C-plus to B-minus on what I thought might be important at some point in time.”
J: So it’s like, “Going to college and then knowing I don’t want to do what I’m going in college for and that I don’t need a college degree for what I want to do, but finishing college just to be safe.” Those things.
H: But that’s also just being gay. I just think that as gay people, we’re really… I think it’s also where we all want to be like, “We’re in this post-homophobia future.” Which is literally untrue. Every time I talk to gay performers, especially, we have that scarcity and I have that a lot with my fans. I take people crossing my boundaries a lot, because I’m like, “If you go away, then there’s no one.” If these people go away, then there’s no one. We really do have that because we’re told that we’re too niche and too ratified. We don’t actually take comedy or performance seriously, because if we do, then we wouldn’t be talking about being gay or being trans. You know what I mean?
J: Yes. A hundred percent.
H: So I just think that it really is just the latent homophobia that seeps into our pores, that makes us believe that we have to be available to everyone all the time in order to gain the same opportunities as a straight person.
J: So are you saying that you felt that way, but then actively push against it to be…
J: I really respect that. Maybe what I actually, not envy, because I’m not covetous of you, but in a more positive way…
J: What I really admire in you is to feel that and then still be like, “I’m not going to do it.”
H: But even today I had this person in my DMs ask for a TikTok I put in my story and then dead-name me and then apologize, but did it in a way that wasn’t genuinely apologetic, and I was like, “I should just block this person so they no longer have access to me because they’re already asking me for more than I owe a complete stranger.” But then I have this anxiety, being like, “You’re only going to have so many fans in your life. You’re only going to have so much support because you’re a f*cking freak and you’re this transgender freak show. So you should keep people on board on your train, even if they push your boundaries.”
J: Yeah. That makes total sense.
H: It’s eerie.
J: It’s so hard
H: And that’s why here on VinePair we’re talking about going out.
J: That’s why we’re talking about partying.
J: It is so real that it’s like, you can’t. I hadn’t even realized how much until you said it, it is tied up in queerness.
H: It really is.
J: It’s also funny because there’s two ends of the spectrum. Where I don’t want to lose it all by setting those boundaries, but I also don’t want to play into it where I’m being fanned over as a caricature of who I actually am.
H: Yes, yes.
J: Do you know what I mean?
H: You have totality.
H: You’re a full f*cking person. We are full people.
J: Oh my God! But then it spins out. We can’t even get into this too much, because we will talk for like three hours on it and it will be ketamine therapy. But it’s like…
H: No, but it’s hard being a personality.
J: It’s hard because, one, it’s like, I’m a personality, but I don’t want to be a personality. We’re writers, we’re actors, we’re comedians. I don’t want to be… No sh*t. I often think people with big personalities like you and me, people are like, “I don’t want to hear from them as an actor. I don’t want to hear from them as a writer. I want them to sell me sh*t QVC.” Do you know what I mean? We’re personalities, and I’m like…
H: But the thing is, we would be so good at that.
J: I would kill.
H: We would be so good at that. I would be so good selling that cuticle cheese grater. I could talk about that for hours.
J: The Ped Egg.
H: The Ped Egg. Unfortunately, I could sell a Ped Egg at 4 in the morning and people would buy it. But there’s more to me.
J: There’s more.
H: There’s more.
J: That’s the thing. You can have a big personality and skills.
H: Yes. Wholeheartedly.
J: And that’s, I think, the issue. And so it’s like-
H: To be a big personality is a skill.
J: And also, yes.
H: It is.
J: That’s the thing, that is the thing.
H: But people don’t take us seriously because we’re gay.
H: Literally, literally.
J: When you’re showing your personality, because we both have a big personality, that can be funny and entertaining. When you’re showing that, then people want your totality.
J: It’s like, “No, but hey, I actually don’t like…”
H: I’m reserved. I can’t give you all of me. That’s for me and for my beloveds that I have consensual chosen relationships with.
J: Also, the idea of turning my asshole inside out and showing you my entire existence for consumption online, is like…
H: I can’t.
H: It would kill me.
J: It would kill me.
H: It would literally kill me.
J: It would microwave my brain from the inside out and it would be over.
H: No. And I only microwave my brain on purpose when I choose.
J: For Pride Weekend.
H: To do Pride Weekends every year, or Halloween, or Mardi Gras.
J: Wait, this ties into what I was about to ask.
J: Which is the level that we’re going right now, where does that compare for you to standard?
H: How do you mean?
J: I phrased that question in a psychotic way.
H: How do you mean, Jake?
J: Are you going hard often or is this more concentrated right now?
H: Fascinating. I love to cut a rug; I love to dance. I like going out to the club and I love techno, house, garage, Truman bass. That’s what I was raised on. I was a Chicago club kid who was going to raves in soccer stadiums and abandoned dentist offices, and taking molly or doing blow, or doing some ketamine, and just…
J: How young were you when this started?
H: Like 15, 16.
J: That’s so young.
H: I was sneaking out, telling my parents I was sleeping at Alex Carlins’s house, and really, his rich ass was buying us Ubers or cabs, at that point, to the city to rave, and I would meet people there. Those were my little friends. And then you would call a phone number and it would tell you where to show up at 2 in the morning, somewhere on the west side of Chicago.
H: So that’s just what I was always doing. And my friends were DJs, and my friends were punks. So I’ve always just had this real revelatory experience where I’m dedicating my time to dancing, getting high, getting lost in the music, working some sh*t out so that I can be spat out at the beginning of the week, refreshed, and renewed. And it really is super ceremonial to me to have these moments with dance music, with my friends, with drugs, if I choose to do that. But sometimes it’s also just a f*cking White Label Monte and a shot of tequila. And that’s really all that I need. The people that I meet there and the conversations that I have, it all just feels really sacred. But four times a year, I like to do molly. Some people like doing it a little more often, just take a little bit. Four times a year, I like to go to Liza Minnelli levels of fu*ked up. Four times a year, I like going to Axl Rose, Charlie Sheen, where I am post- verbal, I am incoherent, I have sunglasses on. And if I take them off, there’s no difference between if my eyes are open or closed. I do that four times a year in a safer space with some friends, where I’m just layering the drugs that I’m doing. The last time I did that was on Halloween, where I went to the Nowadays‘ Halloween party that goes from 11 at night to 9 p.m. the next day. And I’m doing molly, and I’m doing ketamine, and I’m fully hallucinating and getting so high. The DJ looks like there is stretched latex in front of him. So all I’m seeing is his face. You know that “American Horror Story”?
J: It’s so funny that you’re saying this, because I’m picturing it and it’s like, “I know what you were seeing was his shadow through the clouds of fog.”
J: But that now looks like…
J: It looks like you’re specifically talking about the poster for “American Horror Story” I saw.
H: For the homosexual millennial listeners at home, that’s what it looked like.
J: If you look back and Honey is dressed as the nun who possesses the demon.
H: And then my friend turns to me, I was like, “Hey, do you want to have a cigarette?” And they were like, “Yeah, let’s do that once people stop switching heights.” That’s how f*cked up I want to be. Do you know what I mean? Completely forlorn, lost at sea, and then eventually you just teeter down back to reality and have 24 hours where you have to pinch yourself to make sure that it’s real. But then it’s just a reset and you go on about your life.
J: I love having a boundary that is beyond what people think acceptable boundaries are, but it’s still a boundary for you, like, “It’s four times a year.”
H: Four times a year.
J: And within the compounds of that four times a year, I’m going to rip myself in half.
H: Absolutely. And then the rest of the time, I’m sometimes teetering a K hole or I’ll do things at home, if it’s fun. But four times a year, it’s on or around every solstice. When the seasons change, I am inevitably changing as well.
J: This is the thing about all ravers and partiers, is they are literally a one trip on a crack on the sidewalk to being a full-blown witch. And some are.
J: I’m like, “This is all Wicca.”
H: No. It literally is paganism, and I’ve fully given myself schizophrenia for my lifestyle choices. I’m like, “Did everyone else hear that?” My cochlear glands are not fully functioning anymore. It’s like I have torn a hole through the space-time continuum so often, I have seen the alien language tear out in the sky above me. But now I’m like, “Do I really have to go to work? Do I really have to do this?” But that’s just my method to make this reality, that I didn’t consent to, easier for me. It’s like, “I just have to do DMT four times a year.” And it smells bad.
J: How do you handle having been someone who has broken through on DMT and seen the gods? When you’re serving a table is like, “This wine is bad.”
H: Honestly, it makes it easier. I know that when you…
J: You literally have done everything in your life better than me, Honey. It’s crazy.
H: When you sit down at the bar at Kindred, where I work… Shout-out Kindred.
J: Wait, fun fact. Honey replaced me at Kindred.
H: Yes. Jake gave me my job, but so serendipitous, Jake.
J: It was truly psychotic. Wait, we should have already talked about this.
J: So Honey is truly one of my favorite comedians on the internet and in New York City.
H: Thank you.
J: You are one the funniest people I’ve ever met. My best friend, David, who at this point you have met.
J: Early TikTok, I don’t even know if I was making videos yet. Back when it was the best.
H: Totally. Back when it was just Musical.ly.
J: Back when it was like you had broken through on DMT.
J: I would see the wildest sh*t there.
H: A hundred percent.
J: I miss it. The thing about it was…
H: People were making homemade Napalm.
H: It was so intense.
J: It was just crazy, because the algorithm hadn’t figured out how to curl out the weird sh*t yet.
H: And there wasn’t any spon con.
J: No. And if you weren’t into the dancing, Charli D’Amelio, Addison Rae sh*t, it didn’t show you anything remotely near that. It was like if truly, truly, truly, early YouTube, Vine and eBaum’s World, had had a baby.
H: Legitimately genuine. It was the wild, wild, wild west.
J: And I think that’s why I didn’t even start posting videos yet. Because I was like..
H: Where do I fit in here? Where do I fit in?
J: No. Because I was like, “I think to make this content, you have to be in a dissociative state.” Which I…
H: And you do.
J: It was Covid, so I was cusping on it.
J: Anyway. David sent me this video of you, and this is textbook reacting to someone cooking bacon-crusted salmon.
H: Yes, yes, yes. I was. And I have never received more death threats in my entire life, than when I just simply laid out that I thought that pairing this bacon-crusted salmon, which also had excesses of lemon, lime, and orange on it. It was crusted with candied bacon.
H: And then I thought that the biggest upfront to my gastronomical heritage was that he paired it with a very milquetoast rosé, as if that was going to clear the air of the damage you have done to this sacred fish.
J: It was wild.
H: People were pissed, pissed, pissed, pissed. So mad at me. And I was like, “Sorry, I have taste.”
J: But I followed you immediately.
H: Thank you.
J: But also, I was aware that you lived in Seattle. And so it was like, “This will be a person I follow on the internet for years to come.” I know what it was. I remember, then you followed me back.
H: Yes. Became obsessed, became clinically obsessed.
J: And then I think, the reason I finally DMed you, was, I was at Bushwick Pride last year, and I walked up to three different people from the back thinking it was you, because everyone had the bleach mullet.
J: And the third person was like, “Okay. So they’re not here.” I just need to text them and be like, “Hey, tell me if you’re here because I’ve approached three separate people that I was certain were you.”
J: And then you’re like, “No, but I am actually moving to New York.” And I was like, “Incredible.”
H: You devined it, and then my… It was like an apparition of future me at Bushwick.
J: That’s what it was. Are you going this year?
H: No. Should I?
J: It’s day party on Saturday. It’s fun.
H: Okay. I’ll go.
J: Come. It’ll be fun. You texted me and you’re like, “I’m coming to the show you’re on.” It was Saturday, I was like, “Perfect.” It was the week I had left Kindred and my GM came to also see me for fun. No one asked, I did not organize this. It was truly serendipitous. And then, we all went out for a drink after and I was like, “Do you need a job?” And then you were like, “Yeah.” And then you went to the bathroom and I turned to Charlotte and I was like, “They need a job and they’re dope.”
H: And then I got hired.
J: In the bar.
H: In the bar. It’s so serendipitous.
J: I love that.
H: And I’m always like, “Jake got me this job. Jake was the one who got my first New York City serving bartending job, where I get to work with Charlotte, who I’m obsessed with, and this really fabulous, caring, lovely group of people.” It couldn’t have been a better first gig for me to get once later.
J: That was why I was so excited to get you in there, because I was like, “This will actually save you from the curse of…”
H: Bartending in Times Square.
J: Bartending in a hotel and all that. Just the hell of that.
J: And all the sh*t I went through, I was like, “Let me just get you a place where it’s good people.” And I’m like, “It’s not like it’s not going to solve all your problems.” It’s still hard. No matter what restaurant you work in and you’re trying to be a comedian, it’s so f*cking hard.
H: It is hard.
J: Just like objectively is.
H: And I feel like we should speak to that.
H: Also, because we got on this tangent because you were like, “How has your quarterly DMT training assisted you when people are really annoying at work?” But I was just going to say that, recently, I had someone sit at my bar and just not open his phone or the menu and just ask me for soup, in June; just ask me for soup, which we don’t have. But I literally heard the DMT horns that signal that you’re about to break through and meet anana, and I was just like, “We don’t have soup.” And then I’m able to come from a grounded place that’s not like, there’s no judgment, there’s no rage, there’s no hatred. It’s just like, you clearly haven’t had that happen to you. So you think you can just demand soup everywhere you go. And we don’t have soup. So instead he went, “Okay. Can I have a Margarita?” And I said, “Yes.”
H: The pivot. And I was like, “I actually can do that. That I can do.” But I think that being a server when you’re a comedian, it’s challenging because you don’t have all of your nights.
J: That’s the hardest part.
H: The only job I’ve ever had in my life is server. That’s the only job I’ve ever had. It’s all that I’ve ever done, because I don’t come from any money. And when you are serving or bartending at good restaurants, you can only work three nights a week. You can only work three to four nights a week and then have more of your time. If you wake up at like 10, after getting off work late, you still have like 10 to 3 to get sh*t done, workout, write. You still have more of your time that’s allocated to you. I feel like when you work a 9 to 5, you’re at work and then you’re at work again. So it’s hard to find that balance. But I do always feel like, “I’m behind everyone. I have to say no to show sometimes, because they’re not paying.” It’s f*cking intense.
J: It’s hard.
H: It’s so intense.
J: There’s no answer.
J: It’s so hard. I remember, a big thing for me was, when I got to New York and started doing it… I feel like I’ve said this in the podcast before. Maybe I haven’t. I remember getting to New York, and so naively thinking that, “Yes, it’s going to be hard, but everyone’s in it and you’re in it together. Everyone’s hustling, and broke, and trying to make money.” And then you find out that rich kids wanted to do comedy. So I remember, I went through this period, I so viscerally remember this, when I was starting to realize how many of the people I was coming up with in comedy had all bills paid.
J: Rent, food, drinks, credit card. Paid.
H: Money in the account every month.
J: And we were friends, and they were doing well, and they were funny, and I was, frankly, heartbroken and furious. Because I went through this period where I gave up and then came back, and I feel so lucky. I truly feel like I got a second chance.
H: I didn’t know that.
H: Okay, cool.
J: And by gave up, I mean, I moved my goal post three quarters of a field down.
J: Football reference, no one freak out.
H: I’m literally screaming, I’m crying, I’m throwing up.
J: You think about all your cis frozen yogurt later.
H: I’m like, “Okay. Honestly, three goal posts.” I know what that means now. Because I’m having a raspberry vanilla swirl.
J: I moved my goals of what I was looking for in life so much closer, because it’s the thing of regret. Where I was like, “I don’t want to feel like a failure in life, but now those two are impossible, because the people who are going to get there, are the people who don’t have to deal with all of this sh*t right now.” That’s why I gave up on a lot. I forfeited a lot of my dreams, I think, at the time. And it was subconscious and conscious. And then when the pandemic hit and I started to move my comedy and become a little bit more successful in a different way, I was like, “Wait, absolutely not.” And moved it back.
H: Thank God, thank God.
J: I know. One of the things that held me back the most, not even having to do the job and saying no to the shows, and saying no to this and that, not being able to go to this party and meet these people, was the rage I had for the people who could.
J: I was.
J: That was the thing I had. That was the final step before I was able to start actually enjoying comedy again, where I was like, “I can’t be furious at these people. I can’t hate these people who I’ve never f*cking met, for taking an opportunity that I absolutely would have if I had been in that position.” What are they going to do?
J: Do you know what I mean? But I had visceral rage towards them and I had to release it. I had this…
H: You had, absolutely.
J: Energy that is precious energy, that you need to be putting into your own sh*t. Because your rage energy…
H: Doesn’t bring you any closer to what you want.
J: No. And it feels so powerful that you think it might touch them, and it’s literally not in their atmosphere.
H: No, it doesn’t. They don’t care. They literally don’t care about you, poor.
J: They literally don’t know.
H: They don’t care, poor.
H: You’re poor. They don’t care. They don’t care about poor. I’ve had to do that too, where…
J: You have to do that.
H: Just the genuine, I have to just accept where I am, where I’m at, what I’ve been given, and just also not have this… And I also think that the rage then holds hands with the imposter syndrome, and also then gives me this really nasty chip on my shoulder. I can think that I’m better than someone who was born with a silver spoon probably because I am, but I also just think that I have to know that I do deserve what they have and I do deserve what they’ve created for themselves with the help that they’ve been offered. And so I think just having that acceptance, that release, like you’re saying, it just offers us more space to build what we want to build.
H: So f*ck off, whatever.
J: Truly f*ck off.
J: And I think that’s also-
H: Like, I’m glad that your dad is president of Nabisco. I don’t care, whatever. You know what Vail is. I don’t. To me, the only veil that I know is V-E-I-L. The sacred veil that you pierce to talk to God in the eyes. I don’t know about Vail in Colorado, and maybe I never will.
J: Totally. A lot of the sh*t I was feeling about those people was so projected. And this actually ties, I’m going to tie this into going out as well, because I feel like I’ve also done this at times with the cool people in a scene, or at a bar, or in a social scene. Where I’ve projected my, if I’ve labeled them as the ones that have been given whatever the silver spoon in that situation is. So is that having a psychotic hot body?
J: Is that being working at the cooler bar, there’s a hundred iterations of what this silver spoon could be. Is it the actual fiscal privilege, whatever? You also have to admit that part of it, what is actually happening, is also you actually projecting the things you hate about yourself onto them, and then claiming that they are perceiving it of you and projecting it at you. And that’s literally not happening.
H: No. It’s not.
J: Without fail. Every time you meet these people, you’re like, “They’re actually cool.” Do you know what I mean? Even the rich kids, even if we are talking fiscal privilege, they can be lame or bubbled, but they’re rarely evil. Their parents are evil.
J: Do you know what I mean? Sometimes they’re evil, sometimes they’re evil.
H: No. But I also think that building people up to be these megalomaniacs where in which they often aren’t, it’s just a way that we’re trying to protect ourselves too. It’s like, “I’m just trying to protect myself from this other that I feel othered by.” When in actuality it’s institutions. It’s hegemony. It’s very rarely just these individual people that you’re saying we project this hierarchy on, when in actuality it’s way bigger systems of oppression that are making us feel alienated from people that we really could build and have fun with, and laugh with, and collaborate with.
J: So you were saying earlier-
H: And my favorite cocktail is probably a Pisco Sour.
J: Egg white or no?
H: Egg white.
H: Obviously. Protein. I like having protein at the bar.
J: To be a queer and not say, “The chickpea come over.”
H: The aquafaba. No, I can’t.
J: The aquafaba. I couldn’t think of the actual word.
H: Totally. The chickpea nut. I’ll take either, but I prefer an egg white. Because it’s so intense.
J: It’s so intense.
H: It’s so intense that you’re drinking an egg right now.
J: Yes. It’s really powerful.
H: It’s viscous.
J: But you were mentioning, when you like to go out, you like to become ether, lose yourself. That’s fascinating to me, because I’ve been doing a lot of self-analysis. I’m someone who likes to drink and I like to go out.
H: I also love to eat at restaurants.
J: We’ll get into that.
H: I’m very, yeah.
J: This episode should be three hours long.
H: It might be. This is like “The Godfather,” this is like “Ben Hur.”
J: This is “The Irishman.”
J: I feel like as someone who is a big personality and has security in that, the idea of ethering, is a little scary to me.
H: I know. But when you’re at the club?I also think that as an entertainer, as someone who really, really takes my role as conductors so seriously, as maestro, as someone who’s coming to my show, it’s my responsibility to hold the thread over that 90 minutes to make sure that you’re leaving lighter, and then, when you can. That’s so important to me. But I also love to surrender that responsibility to someone else. To DJs.
J: We’ve talked about this as a host of restaurants or bars.
J: Do you think that’s why you love going to restaurants?
H: That’s also why I love going to restaurants. I love someone taking my hand and guiding me through an experience. That’s also why I like being a bartender more than a server, I think, because you are responsible for flow in a more hands-on way, because you’re both greeting guests and curating their experience while you’re also giving the item to someone else. Especially when you’re a bartender at a restaurant, your legs are working. But then when I become ether and I’m going out to the club, or going to a rave, I’m just surrendering myself, and my time, and my experience to somebody else. It’s like, “Who I am is now irrelevant.” It’s not when you get to be the best, f*cking sexiest, funniest customer, when I’m going out to a friend’s restaurant. There, your personality is also part of the experience that you’re having, because you get to make everyone’s day a little better. Because when industry comes to eat at a restaurant, you’re making everyone’s day better. But here, I’m silent. I don’t speak. I just am.
J: As someone who has tried, literally time and time again, to enjoy a techno moment or…
H: You might as well like the music. What about jazz?
J: I don’t know. I guess what? I have multiple responses.
H: I have multiple responses. I do.
J: You have multiple responses to me, false starting to send it three times. So I have a lot of analysis there.
J: I think I’ve only experienced what you’re talking about dancing, honestly, to top 40 pop.
H: Oh my God! That’s beautiful, though.
J: Wait, wait. I need to get my phone.
J: I was at a wedding this weekend, I need to read you verbatim, these text messages that I sent my boyfriend.
H: Because your boyfriend loves the club.
J: So yeah, my boyfriend does not really do top 40 mainstream pop, and does techno house. Even at the gym, he’s listening to techno. And he goes to these parties that I’ll go to. We’ve just had to get to a point now where I’m like, “Will I remotely enjoy this or no?” And like, “If it’s ‘no,’ I don’t want to go.” Because I’ll either not have fun, or what I’ll do is, I’ll end up doing a drug I didn’t actually feel like doing or whatever.
H: And then having a bad time.
J: Or having a good time, but I can’t. Certain drugs make me feel really bad the next day.
J: Some is great and some…
H: It’s not.
J: Can you tell how acutely aware I am that my mom listens to this podcast?
H: Totally. Hi, Mrs. Cornell.
J: Wait, where are these text messages that I sent?
H: Please find them.
J: I sent Nathan’s text messages…
H: I see your boyfriend out and about sometimes. So at first I was going to be like…
J: Wait, You need to go say hi to him.
H: I have to go say hi. But I’m high, so sometimes it’s hard to bridge that gap when talking to a stranger.
J: He’ll be fine. The fact that you are taking time to see him, he will appreciate that.
H: Okay, great. Because at first I was going to be like, “Maybe it’s not good techno.” But I see your boyfriend out and he has good taste.
J: The other thing about it is, that to me, I’m not trying to say good techno doesn’t exist, but I actually can’t perceive the difference. In my mind, every single time I’ve gone to a techno party, the exact same song has played. Do you know what I mean?
H: I’m just like a dog who can only hear a certain pitch that you can’t hear. It’s different hearing.
J: The Inuit people have 10 different words for snow, so when they see snow, they literally see different snow.
H: Yes. It’s like that.
J: It’s like that. I’m like, “How are the ringtones?” To me, it’s all ringtones.
H: How are the hit clips? But I like top 40 too, but not contemporary. But I love Jessie Ware, Kylie Minogue, Madonna.
J: I guess what I’m trying…
H: I like Ariana, Nicki.
J: Wait here. I found the text message.
H: Okay. I’m ready.
J: 9:53 p.m. Which, you’re only allowed to be f*cked up that early if it’s a wedding. I don’t know what is happening, but I’m drunk at this wedding. Not psycho junk, but a little drunk. And I can’t stop thinking about how much I love Lady Gaga, and it’s making me cry. Everyone’s dancing and I’m crying thinking about how much I love Lady Gaga.
H: But I love Lady Gaga.
J: I was in the middle of this dance floor with tears running down my eyes, thinking about how much I love Lady Gaga.
H: Hey, have you always loved her? Were you a teen…
J: The moment I fell in love with Lady Gaga was the VMA performance of “Paparazzi” that I believe is 2008.
H: So that’s early Gaga.
J: And I liked “Just Dance” and I liked “Poker Face,” but it wasn’t… Especially because those videos still have…
H: Because “Paparazzi,” I have goosebumps. You know what I’m thinking? That song is fucking good.
J: Yes. So “Paparazzi” is really when it happened for me. And then from then on, it only got more and more intense.
H: I love Lady Gaga as a cultural figure for many reasons. But one of the main ones is because she’s just an annoying f*cking theater kid. She is like if Lea Michele got to be famous in that way. We all know a Stephanie German adult. Yes. Do you know what I mean? We all went to high school with some b*tch who held the note out longer, so you would hear how on pitch she was.
J: She’s like, “I’m going to do that, but also be as talented and work as hard to back it up to give you everything.”
H: No. She is a star. She’s a f*cking star and I love her voice, I love her face, I love whatever. I love her new mouth.
J: She’s incredible.
H: She’s aging really f*cking well.
J: I love everything she does.
H: Because now, she’s what, 36, 37?
J: Yeah, probably.
H: Probably. And she’s dressing like a Zara mom. She’s now on a white blazer, skinny jeans, and a cheap looking bralette. She’s looking hella Jersey, and I like it. She’s smoking pot. I’ve watched the Five Foot Three documentary probably three times.
J: It’s so good.
H: I love it, I love it.
J: It’s so good.
H: Her getting acupuncture and writhing in pain, because she has… What’s it called?
H: She has osteofibroma, then she’s getting acupuncture, hysterically crying.
J: And also because her album leaked.
J: To tie back what you were saying when I go out and that’s the kind of music, that music feels so intrinsic to me, that I can fully lose myself in it.
H: That’s beautiful.
J: I think that techno, to me, I don’t know the language, and I don’t get it, and I don’t have words to connect to, and I don’t have characters to connect to.
H: No, totally.
J: I don’t fall into it. And so, I feel so, not perceived everyone’s looking at me, but it’s the opposite where I don’t lose myself. I’m so hyper aware.
H: Because you’re trying to listen to a language you don’t have context for.
J: Techno makes me so aware of every person around me, I can’t lose myself in it. But I’m hearing you say that, that’s the point. I’m like, “That’s what I’m doing wrong, is, I’m looking for meaning in it when the point is absolution.”
H: Totally. As an annoying Sagittarius, absolution and meaningful are also synonyms. In nothing there is everything. But that’s just what I’ve always been able to intrinsically access.
J: You to me are someone who fully believes and knows that the world is ending in five years and is not worried about it.
H: I am stoked. I’m really excited. That’s also something that I do say. When I say we’re running out of time, I really don’t mean that lightly. I’m on the record, we’re in the last five years that any of us who are not billionaires can go on planes, in my opinion. I know that’s really intense to say. I really do believe it. I just think that the Earth is fully trying to turn over and I will be gripping onto the cement as hard as I can. I want to live. I really want to see it through. If there’s an ice age in 10 years, I’m going to be out there in a loincloth, carrying a yak above my hands. I’m going to be mating with a saber tooth tiger to create a weird hybrid human bear. I’m going to see it through. But no, we only have five years left and I’m not scared. You’re scared, in between.
J: Obviously, I don’t want to see people die.
J: I do, just believe. My whole thing, and this is how I feel about religion too, is, we have no idea… That’s not true, because we do know what’s going to happen because science.
J: I have no idea how it’s going to play out for me and the people in my life. All I can do is just trust that I will deal with it in time. Because I have no way of predicting what it’s going to be.
H: You will, totally. And you’re highly beloved and very cared for. You have a network of family and friends.
J: Oh my God! Imagine if I earnestly said right now, what if I was like, “I really believe that the apocalypse is happening soon. I just think I’m going to be popular enough to get through it. People are going to choose me.”
H: And I would be like…
J: People are going to choose me.
H: Snaps. Absolutely.
J: They’ll ultimate pick me is to be like, “I do know that.”
J: It’ll be like, “Women and children and Jake first.”
H: And we’re getting on the boat. Like, “Let’s go.” I always say that a marker of dystopia is that growing old is no longer promised. And that has been a reality for other people in more marginalized groups than you or I, for much longer. I think that our contemporary reality has constantly been a dystopia for many people, but now it’s for everyone. Now, literally it’s like, “We’re just here.” And I don’t know why, for whatever reason, the creator decided that you and I, and Penny Lane, and the producer, had to be born during this time. And like, “This is what we need to be accessing.” But oh, well. Totally. And the first dish that I ever ate that really made me love going out, was probably my father’s caviar that he would make at his restaurant, Jackie’s Bistro.
J: Wait, your father had a restaurant?
H: Yes. That’s how it all began.
J: You were raised in restaurants?
H: Yeah. That’s the origin story. My dad is a gregarious…
J: We transitioned actually on that, so people are going to think the podcast audio was f*cked up. People are going to rewind and go back.
H: Like, “What just happened?”
Katie Brown: I’m just really obsessed with the fact that you remember Penny Lane’s name and not mine.
H: Is it Kim?
H: Katie, how close? It’s always going to be easier for you to remember a dog’s name.
K: I agree.
H: I am just actually so queer and so trans, that the name Kim, I’m like.. Did you say kite? Is that what you’re talking about? Are you saying Kaffar? Names that were given to you by your family, I actually no longer can access as true. But Penny Lane, I’m like, “I actually know a girl.”
J: You need a noun.
H: I need a noun, I need a noun. Thank you for seeing me.
J: Okay. Wait, I didn’t realize this, you were raised in the restaurant?
H: Yes. Raised in the restaurant industry. My dad is a gregarious half-French, half-Italian man who moved to Chicago from France to open a restaurant. And that’s what he did. That’s where his money came from until 2008, when the market crashed and his restaurant closed. And then he went completely ballistic and out of my life for the rest of my life, that’s what was happening from birth to 2008. So I was like 14.
J: And were you working in the restaurant when you were a child?
H: Yes. I was also the…
J: I know it’s bad, but I like when someone’s like, “I was used to violate child labor laws.” I’m like, “I respect that so much.”
H: No, same. No, literally same. He’s like, “My wife and my children work in my restaurant because I don’t have to pay them.” I was like, “You’re so smart.” But I was also drinking Shirley Temples at the bar with the bartender, Sharky. Playing tic-tac-toe at the tables. I got to be the cool child who was eating foie gras, and muscles, and escargot.
J: Of course you were raving by the time you were 15, you were like, “Yeah. I did this when I was anonymous.”
H: I was drinking Bordeaux when I was four and it’s like, “I need “to level up eventually in my life.
J: So was it a higher-end restaurant?
H: It was like a brasserie, in that price range. Where you can ball out, but you can also be economical, if you want to.
J: I would say one of my favorite kinds of restaurants.
J: That’s what Walter’s is.
H: Absolutely. No, genuinely, I love a steak frite, I love muscles, I love calf’s liver, I love escargot. I love a salanie swass. I have this elevated palate and this genuine… I’m really food-motivated. I’m a gourmand; I love to eat. I love to gorge myself. People are like, “I don’t like to eat if I’m full.” I like to eat until I’m sick, and then be carted out. I’m sweating. I’m very old French royalty. Do you know what I mean? Where they would just eat all of these…
J: Weren’t there buckets for them to barf and…
H: Exactly. That is so erotic to me. I love that sh*t. But that’s how my dad was, that’s how my mom is. Her, less, because she got very indoctrinated by American diet cuisine. But it’s always been so aligned with how I like to experience the world, is through my mouth and through tasting. And that’s just really where it started, and that’s what my only job has ever been.
J: Are we like eight months into New York, for you?
J: Where have you been enjoying to gourmand?
H: Clear question. I love Wu’s Wonton King. That’s where Age had her birthday dinner, and that was really special. Because also, there’s the fanfare, the giant crab came out.
J: It’s a show.
H: It’s a show. The pig came out. That was amazing. I live in Ridgewood, and my favorite neighborhood restaurant in my neighborhood is Porcelain. Amazing. It’s the chef that used to work at Mission Chinese, opened up her own place, Porcelain, it’s f*cking delicious, Pan-Asian. They have this prawn and rice cake dish that I think about constantly. Anytime you want to come to Ridgewood, we can go out and have dinner. I love it there. I went to Bonnie’s that opened recently. That’s f*cking delicious.
J: I’m sensing an Asian-skewed palate.
H: Yes, definitely. Totally. I think that’s also just what can be more accessible.
J: I was going to say, if you were raised in a French restaurant, it would make sense to me that the other side of the world’s cuisine would be more intriguing for you.
H: I’m like, “Let’s do more, for sure.” I love the food at Kindred, it’s so bomb.
J: The food at Kindred is so good.
H: It’s literally…
J: What’s your favorite Kindred dish?
H: My favorite Kindred dish is the gnocchi bolognese.
J: It’s so good.
H: It’s like pillowy, perfect gnocchi. That’s where I’ve eaten recently, that I can think of, that I really… And I went to Llama San with Age, really special, like, “Let’s spend a bunch of money.” And that’s Peruvian, Japanese. I went to Contento in Harlem, that’s Peruvian food, recently. That was f*cking amazing.
J: I’m so impressed that you’ve been here eight months and you live in Ridgewood, and you’ve gone to Harlem for a restaurant.
H: Totally. Because we have the motorcycle. Through motorcycle, everything’s possible.
J: So you’re getting on a motorcycle and riding to a restaurant in Harlem?
H: Mmhmm. That to me is like, “Could anything be better?”
J: No. I mean that’s literally aggressive.
J: And does just Age drive it or do you have one?
H: Just Age drives it. I am so lackadaisical. Fearless, that to me, is like too chugey of a word.
J: But I feel like your body doesn’t produce cortisol easily.
H: We were driving back from Harlem, but motorcycle did actually flip over, because it was raining. And you’re right, my cortisol level literally did not spike. And I was just like, “Okay. We’ll just push it over to the side and get back on.” And she was shaking and throwing up, and I was like, “Whatever.”
J: Of course she was.
H: No, my cortisol levels rise when I get a text saying like, “We need to talk.” That’s what…
J: Interpersonal drama.
H: Interpersonal drama. I’m like, “Okay. How do I grow on myself?”
J: So you would rather flip on a motorcycle than accidentally text someone that you’re talking about?
H: Absolutely, absolutely. I don’t have time for a mishap. It really is just too much work to get out of.
J: I actually feel similarly, where I’m actually pretty good in a crisis. I do think I’m someone that’s put in a crisis.
H: I sense that of you.
J: But I flub an interpersonal exchange.
H: I don’t want to die.
J: I can list every single time it’s happened in the past 10 years.
J: They don’t listen to this podcast, I feel fine saying this. I saw someone, it was the second time I was meeting them, and they’re the relative of someone else in my life, who’s someone I really care about. And so they’re going to show up throughout my life, I’m always going to be tangentially near this person. She was like, “It’s so nice to see you again, where did we meet?” And I was like, “We met at that bizarre birthday party.” And she was like, “My birthday party.” And I was like…
H: I would lose my sh*t.
J: It was so tough.
H: I would lose my sh*t, because we’re done.
J: The thing was, it was so black or white, that I was like, “I’m sorry.” There’s no like, “Oh my God! Wait, no. I mean the other party we met at.”
H: You just had to accept.
J: I objectively said.
H: The blunder is the blunder.
J: And it was so, so tough. The worst ones are where I accidentally do something like that with a service person and now I’ve been perceived as a rude patron.
H: But even the best patrons, which you absolutely are, make mistakes.
J: I know. This is my worst one. I have total agada about this. And it’s been, at this point, I think literally seven years. But I was at this restaurant. It’s that place that we pop up for brunch in Williamsburg. Katie, what’s it called? It’s something leaves, Four Leaves. Do you want what I’m talking about, Five Leaves?
H: I don’t believe in brunch.
J: That’s what I’m saying. And that’s actually probably why I flubbed this up, because I was off-kilter, because I’m like why am I at brunch? And I’m sitting on the patio and he was like, “Hey, can I get you guys a drink?” And I was f*cked, I did the annoying thing where I’ve been at this table for five minutes and I haven’t looked at the menu. What I was trying to say was like, “Oh my God! Literally just give me like one second. Because I’m so sorry that I haven’t looked at the menu yet.” And instead I went, “Oh my God! Totally, can, like a second?” And he was like, “Sure.” And walked away.
H: You were like, “I’m sorry.”
J: And the minute it happened, I don’t remember the brunch, because I was in a panic attack.
H: You were totally not functioning.
J: I was like, “I hope he spits in this, or he sh*ts on my waffles.”
H: Like, “I hope he takes the lox and rubs underneath his armpits.”
J: Yes. I hope when I see the car coming to end my life in six months, it is him behind the wheel.
H: And I’m like, “Fine.” Literally. Once I told a child in my section, “I loved his makeup.” And his dad said he wasn’t wearing any. So that’s my worst one. I think about that every night before I fall asleep.
J: Wait, it was just that he was rosy cheeked?
H: No, he had some skin condition that made it look like he had… You know when you get your face painted at the fair like a giraffe?
H: That’s what it looks like. And it was around Halloween, so I was like, “Oh my God! Cute costume. I love your makeup.” And he was not wearing any. And then I donated my tips for the day to a camp for kids with congenital skin diseases, because I felt so bad.
J: You could literally feel the karma on your back.
H: I felt so bad. And I was like…
J: That is a nightmare.
H: I’m done. I’m keeping everything to myself, I’m keeping my hands on my feet inside the car.
J: You just can’t say anything. You can’t talk about anything.
H: No. Hey, you can talk about anything anymore. PC culture, you really can’t talk about anything anymore.
J: That is so brutal, though.
H: It was literally miserable. I wanted to die.
J: Do you know why I think it’s so stressful? It’s because everything about that was 2,000 percent within my control.
J: If we were to look outside right now and see a meteorite with a dinosaur and it crashed through that moment.
H: I’d like, “What are you going to do? What are you going to do?”
J: I would go into Christ mode if I’m going to react to this, but like there’s only so much I can do. Because like if dino wants to kill me, he’s probably going to get it.
H: I think it’s also just part of being a personality, where it’s like, “I want to curate who I am and how I’m being perceived, 99.99 percent of the time.” Because it’s like, “Will you come to my show, will you support my art, will you support my work, will you listen to this podcast?” We are walking resumes. We exist as saying yes or no to who I am as a person, as you saying yes or no to my art or wanting to support me in my endeavors. So it’s intense when there’s flubs. It’s a lot.
J: I was sending a work email this morning for something I’m filming. Someone reached out to me about a thing I’m filming that was not a person I had spoken to yet. Because they had to ask me a question or something, and I responded, and then I had to send them another thing today. When I looked, I didn’t realize that my iPhone had autocorrected the name to a name that is of the opposite gender and totally different.
H: Oh, no.
J: And I was like, “I don’t know this person.” And I’ve flipped their gender.
H: For some disturbing reason.
J: And I just had to start the way being like, “Hey, just at the top, I need to apologize.”
H: Totally. It was a weird autocorrect.
J: Not what I wanted.
H: No, that is so bad.
J: Actually I find that more stressful than if Cloverfield herself came out of the Hudson right now, I can’t.
H: Literally? If an alien was absorbing me through her claw, I would be like, “What are you going to do? It’s already happening. It’s already happening.”
J: That’s the thing. The difference between Nate and I is, Nate is very much not stressed out by the things that are within his control. The apartment is a little messy, he’ll clean it up.
J: But things that are totally out of his control, literally cripple him with fear.
J: For me I’m like, “No, no, no. That’s out of my control.” I can do my part.
H: That’s why I’m not scared of flying.
J: I actually have come around where I’m not afraid of flying anymore.
H: But you were?
J: I was, I was, but you know what I was afraid of flying for? Wait, this is a great example. This ties in. One time I was bartending and there was a first date at the bar that was going well, but not great. And I was like, “Let me zhoosh and try to get their experience.” So I zhooshed a little, I’m talking to them, both getting the conversation flowing a little bit more. And he was like, “She’s a pilot. Isn’t that so cool? She’s a private plane pilot.” And I was like, “That is a really cool job.” And I’m like, “I’m actually so afraid of flying.” Which I already shouldn’t have said. And she was like, “Why?” And I hadn’t really thought about it. And then I go, “I guess it’s just that flying is really one of the only ways to die violently where there’s a period of time before you die, where you know you’re going to die.” And they both were like, “Yeah. I guess that’s true.” And I was like, “I just ruined this date so bad.” But that is the reason why.
H: That’s a good reason. That is a good reason.
J: I also just conveniently said that at the moment where we do need to end the episode.
H: I’m perfect. It’s all going down.
J: Okay. But wait, let’s plan our night out together.
H: Please, I would love to.
J: I’m happy to take you out in Bed-Stuy, but you already do the show in Bed-Stuy, so I feel like you’re getting the Bed-Stuy experience. I don’t go to Ridgewood enough.
J: So I would come to Ridgewood.
H: Okay, great. If we were going to have a night out, we would go to Porcelain, which is delicious. We would get their Korean-inspired fried chicken, where you get the little crepes, so you can make a little crepe with mint, basil, and lemon shoots. So good. And then we would have that, split a bottle of wine, gab, laugh hysterically, get to know each other even deeper, just really create a beautiful connection in our already bubbling relationship.
H: I love to sit at a bar and drink and just be gab.
J: Where are we going?
H: So then we would go to Aunt Ginny’s, which is also in Ridgewood, close to my place. And we would just drink. I do tequila sodas. What do you do?
J: Gin and sodas.
H: Great. So we would just have our liquors and our soda, and then if we get hungry, again, they have a really late kitchen that’s open until 1, we can get a fried chicken sandwich, or you can get fried halloumi. So good. I love halloumi. We will get the fried halloumi and sweet chili dipping sauce.
J: I’m trying to keep halloumi quiet, because I feel like it’s going to be the new thing that the girls are all over.
H: No, seriously.
J: But I’m aware.
H: But there’s nothing better than finally meeting.
J: No, I know but I’m going to shut the f*ck up.
H: It’s so f*cking good. We’re not getting that, because you can’t get it because it’s like… You know the tariffs, import, export? So we will get that. And then, if we wanted to and if I could convince you, we could walk back deeper into Ridgewood, and we could walk to Nowadays. Maybe it’s like a Wednesday, so there’s house music playing or something that’s a little less cerebrally invasive, such as techno can be. Maybe it’s an R&B night and we could go have some more drinks there. Go on the patio, chain-smoke cigarettes.
J: Yeah. I just need a…
H: Do a little twirl.
J: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
H: You need lyrics.
J: I don’t need lyrics if it’s more disco-y, actually. There’s this party I’m obsessed with, it’s called Hot For You. Wait, I’ll text you on the next one’s because…
H: Please. We’ll go.
J: It’s really fine.
H: I love disco.
J: It’s actually like near Kindred.
H: Perfect. I love Parkside Lounge.
J: Love. Okay.
H: I love Parkside Lounge.
J: We’ll go to the Hot For You as well, because it’s very fun and it’s… They’re not lyricy but it’s discoy, housey. I can’t have it be just like the…
H: Totally. So we can do, maybe now just having a little disco night.
H: And we can just have more drinks, have a White Label Monte and some tequila, and then just kiss each other goodbye and be like, “Wow! What an amazing Wednesday.”
J: Oh my God! Perfect.
H: We can do that.
J: And then I’ll text you my hangover food in the morning.
H: Oh, please.
H: What do you eat when you’re hung over?
J: You’re going to be mad.
H: I’m ready.
J: Because I’ve become the person who actually, when I’m hungover, I go to the gym.
H: Oh my God! No, I am not mad.
J: I hated that person for so long, and now I am that person.
H: I work out. I love the gym. Exercising doesn’t need to be this machismo way that we’re better than people because we’re skinny and ripped.
H: It’s literally somatic.
H: I am reminded, as someone who’s very just body dysmorphic, I forget that anything exists below my neck. But I’m working out. I’m like, “I have arms, I have legs, I have a body, I have a stomach. I have feet, and I’m just making it stronger so it can support me better.”
H: Yes. I love that.
J: So I actually love that and I like eggs. Those are my two things. Gym and eggs.
H: Yum. Gym and eggs.
J: What’s yours? And then I’ll go at the end.
H: Honestly you’re going to hate me. I do like a big-ass 16-ounce green juice.
J: Okay. That’s weird.
H: Kale, apple, celery. That’s it.
J: I respect that.
H: That’s what I do. Little bit of pineapple, mint.
J: I’m so excited. We’re actually going to do this very soon.
H: I’m really excited.
J: Okay. Perfect.
H: Thanks for having me on.
J: Of course. Wait, Honey, wait, plug yourself.
J: Come to Honey Dew.
H: Come to Honey Dew every second and fourth Monday at C’mon Everybody. The links are always in my social media.
J: See you later. Bye.
Thank you so much for listening to “Going Out With Jake Cornell.” If you could please go and rate and review us on whatever you’re listening to this on, that would be really gorgeous for me in a huge way, so thank you.
And now, for some credits. “Going Out With Jake Cornell” is recorded in New York City and is produced by Keith Beavers and Katie Brown. The music you’re hearing is by Darbi Cicci. The cover art you’re probably looking at was photographed by M. Cooper and designed by Danielle Grinberg. And a special shout-out to VinePair co-founders Adam Teeter and Josh Malin for making all of this possible.