The Covid-19 pandemic has ravaged the food and drink industry: Closures have swept the country, and even the most accomplished chefs and restaurateurs have been forced to close their restaurants and bars indefinitely, and in some cases permanently. More than that, hundreds of thousands of hospitality workers have already lost their jobs, with no idea when or if they’ll come back. In the long run, it’s almost certain that restaurants and bars will need significant governmental support and funding to reopen. But in the shorter term, there are things we can do to help aid workers and the restaurants and bars that employ them.
That’s the topic of conversation on the latest VinePair podcast, where Adam, Erica, and Zach discuss how they’re dealing with life without going out, and what individuals and companies can do to help out in this time of crisis.
LISTEN ONLINE OR CHECK OUT OUR CONVERSATION HERE:
Adam: From my apartment in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, I’m Adam Teeter.
Erica: From my apartment in Jersey City, I’m Erica Duecy.
Zach: And in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe.
A: And this is the VinePair podcast. And Zach, you’re so weird about “in Seattle, Washington.” Like, where are you, man? Are you in a garage? Are you in your bedroom? Are you in your kid’s room? Like, where are you?
Z: “In my den in Ballard, I’m Zach Geballe.” Just hanging out here with a bunch of kids’ toys and a basketball that probably isn’t going to get any use for a while.
A: Oh, man. So we are all working from home for obvious reasons, but still keeping the podcast going. Obviously, this is a podcast we’re recording on Wednesday, March 18th with the goal of getting this up for everyone to hear tomorrow, March 19th, just because of the state of what’s happening in the industry. We’re gonna try to put these out a lot more often.
In addition, we will be putting out through the same feed individual conversations with restaurant owners, bar owners, winemakers, distillers, brewers led by either myself, Erica, or Zach over the next few weeks to hear how they are dealing with life, and in the time of corona, how they’re adapting. And these conversations are both to hear what they’re up to, but also to hopefully inspire and connect us all. I think when we all understand that we’re all going through this together, it makes the situations we’re dealing with more palatable and we can sort of start to see a path forward. And so that’s our goal with these conversations. Hopefully the first one will come out early next week. So please be on the lookout for that and support that as well. But without further ado, let’s jump into this week’s podcast. So first, I guess, Erica, Zach, how are you guys coping? How are you doing? And are you taking your advice from the last podcast in terms of making drinks at home and just trying to be centered as much as possible?
E: I’d say yes, I have upped my flask game with Manhattans. So really the only place that I can go these days is Liberty State Park, which overlooks the city, and overlooks the Statue of Liberty. And you can go there, you can have a Manhattan and it’s a really nice way to get away from some of the stress. But I’d also say, you know, right now, sitting in front me, I’ve got a bottle of Pais, which is a light-bodied red that’s been made in Chile for centuries and recently winemakers have kind of rediscovered this grape and are making some really cool wines out of it. So, I’ve got this wine from the Garage Wine Company, and the founder of this estate runs MOVI, which is basically Chile’s association of independent wine growers. And so it’s a very cool small wine company to follow. And this is such a crushable spring red: It’s fresh and clean and floral, with savory, soft tannins. So I think a wine like this is giving me a little bit of relief as well.
A: First of all, I love the idea of Erica in a park with her kids while she’s swigging from a Manhattan in a flask. I think that’s awesome. And second, you definitely have become, I think, like the unofficial spokesman for Pais, which they should start paying you.
E: I mean, I love Pais, how was it overlooked, and used in these big agricultural jug wines for so long? It’s amazing.
Z: I got to tell you, it’s unfortunate to be the guy who says this, one of the single worst wines I’ve ever had in my life was made from Pais. I’ve also had some good ones, to be fair. But I had a rosé relatively recently and…and this almost never happens with me, but I actually tasted it and I was like, I can’t believe someone actually, like, put this in a bottle, sealed it, and sold it and felt good about it. I think it was one of these wines of like, “philosophy more than quality.” And it was like these wild Pais vines that had grown out of control. And someone picked them and they essentially did nothing and it was just like…it was essentially somewhere between drinking vinegar and drinking like, I don’t know, like the cranberry juice that hadn’t been sweetened. And it was just I mean, it was…I couldn’t, I couldn’t do it. Rarely if ever am I like, “no, I cannot understand.” But I don’t know who would have liked that wine. But I guess the answer is, I should have just had them send it to you, Erica.
E: I mean, I am not into those Kombucha-style natural wines for sure. If a natural wine is made on the clean side and I’m not getting any sort of mousy characteristics, or those kombucha characteristics, then I’m all about it. But yeah, I probably would not have enjoyed that wine.
A: I just really discovered the grape and…when I was down in Chile this summer, it is pretty delicious. I mean, [with] the South American Beaujolais, the problem is that they just don’t have enough of it. You know, but obviously other people are trying to make it, right? So in California, a bunch of people are using the same grape, which is the Mission grape. Which is crazy to think that it was also a grape that was brought over by Spanish missionaries in order to, you know, basically make communion wine. And now a lot of these talented winemakers have realized, hey, if we cultivate this well and we use certain methods that we’ve now learned over the last few decades, we can actually make really delicious stuff with it, which is cool. Right? It’s crazy.
E: I was going to say one of the best things about it is, it’s one of the few wines that you can get that are old-vine wines for like $20. Where else in the world can you get a wine made from old vines that is $20. It’s like an insane value.
Z: Well, it does kind of highlight one of these interesting things about the history of the grape both in North and South America, which is like it came over as this [grape] to make communion wine from. And then in a lot of North America, in California, and even Mexico, [it] was largely either ripped out or ignored because when more “noble” varieties from Europe came over, it was discarded. And that didn’t happen as much in South America. And I think this kind of yeah, it’s an interesting thing. Maybe when the world returns to some semblance of normality, we can explore old vines and the concept, because I do think that old vines are really interesting. I don’t always know that it means that they make better wine. Sometimes, yes, sometimes maybe. Sometimes I can attest to some non-Pais old-vine wine I’ve had that still sucks. Because in the end, you can leave vines in the ground for 100 years, but if the place you’re growing them isn’t a great place to grow grapes, it doesn’t really matter. But you’re right that it is a really accessible variety and style of wine to try. What it feels, what it tastes like to drink wines made [from] vines that are 100-plus years old. Because it’s true that that is a very rare opportunity, especially with wines from this hemisphere.
A: True. So, buddy, how are you holding up?
Z: Well, you know, it’s been an interesting week, plus whatever. I’m not sure that I expected to have a week quite like this in my life. But I’m doing O.K. You know, […] I guess maybe it’s one of the advantages of not living in New York City or adjacent is, I actually have space to have a pretty good-sized wine collection. So, I’m not like some people that I know in New York who are panicking that in two weeks they’ll be out of wine. I have a pretty ample supply. And my wife and I have been taking the opportunity, not that we needed the encouragement, to drink a bottle of wine every night with dinner. But I will say that one thing I’ve been struggling with is that feeling that I get, when I’m at home too much, where I’m like, “it’s one o’clock and yeah, maybe it’s a Wednesday, but is there a compelling reason I shouldn’t be drinking a Margarita right now?” So I have so far been able to fend off that instinct. But it’s coming for me. And I do think that it’s going to be a challenge for a lot of people, right? To deal with just the sort of general, you know, even if you’re working from home… I mean, some people, I think, who are working from home are really genuinely still super busy. And you know, those can be people in all kinds of industries. And for them…I actually have a friend who was telling me that he feels like he’s working even more than he used to because he’s not commuting anymore. So all of his time, basically from waking up to when he finishes with work, is work-focused. But I think for a lot of us, even with things to do, [we] inevitably end up with a little bit of down time. At least I feel like I have. And so it’s hard to fight that urge to be like, “oh, man… the fridge is right there, the liquor cabinet is right there.” But so far, I’m holding steady.
A: I mean, I would say what I’ve found is… so we, I think, either in a good way or a bad way, had to get used to this last year when our office wasn’t ready in the construction phases. And so we had to all work from home at Team VinePair. So we kind of got used to it. But I think what I found, which is sort of what you’re saying, Zack, is I actually do find it’s very hard to turn off and that you wind up working like….I remember two nights ago…so was that Monday? I remember Naomi and I were both sitting at the dining room table, working, working, working. We looked over and we’re like… “wait, it’s eight o’clock. Should we cook dinner? Like, how did that happen?” And the second you wake up, it’s… yeah. There’s no separation of your commute. There’s no like…I mean I really miss Michael Barbaro. I haven’t listened to the daily at all because I don’t commute anymore. And so I hope that doesn’t mean you’re not listening to the podcast, everyone. But it’s weird. It’s really weird. Erica, what about you? Because you have… I mean, both you and Zach. I don’t have kids, but the two of you do. So, I mean, are you finding that there’s a separation between work for you or is having kids more of a disruption? Is it, you know, are you finding the balance? What’s it like for you to work from home?
E: Yeah, I’d say there’s no separation of time, you know, that is pretty much not work time. I mean, at VinePair we’ve been working kind of around the clock to cover the effects of Covid-19 on the drinks industry. And that has meant that we’re still posting at 10:00, 11:00 p.m., that we’re still fielding emails and talking to people, sources for stories, around the clock. And then when you throw in kids, two kids working alongside me at the kitchen table trying to do their kindergarten and fourth grade assignments…. I give it like a week and a half before we get to Lord of the Flies territory so…. It’s a little bit much. God bless teachers. I think teachers should get paid a million dollars apiece for every year of school, every year of time served essentially, because it is not easy. And it’s also just not easy to turn off. I think I’m the type of person who just, you know, I have a personality where like, if I have free time, I’m working on projects. I’m working ahead. I’m trying to get things done. And talking to my writers and editors and trying to make every story better. So it is a challenge to have that separation of work and home.
A: Totally. So can you talk a little bit about the reporting we’ve been doing? Cause I know, we basically have insanely shifted gears in terms of what we have been writing about. I mean, we’ve always tried to cover… take a holistic view and large scale view of the world of drinks. Whether it’s through our cultural coverage or other things, but we really went basically all in on what’s happening in the world now. So I’d love if you could talk a little about that, some of the stories that we’ve been publishing and then we can sort of take the conversation from there since today’s topic really is more what’s happening now than, you know, specifically like, “let’s talk about whether or not Napa is relevant anymore,” which we might get to at some point.
E: Yeah. [So] if you go to VinePair.com, you’ll see we have a live blog there that is about how Covid-19 is impacting the drinks industry. So we’re doing both the live coverage as well as individual stories. And really what we’re looking to do is be a resource for the industry as well as for consumers to really understand how businesses are being impacted and both how they can help, and how they can get access to funding or grants to help come out of this crisis. So everything that we’re doing, all of our staff is dedicated to these types of stories. We’ve talked to people from all parts of the industry: suppliers, importers, distributors, restaurateurs, bartenders… you name it. We’ve talked to them. And what we’re hearing really is that it’s going to be a very devastating impact for a very long time and that a lot of businesses will probably never reopen unless they had pretty significant funding or backing going into something like this. So this is really a dire time for all parts of the industry. From the independent restaurants all the way up to big companies. We have coverage looking and charting, on the big side, looking at the AB InBevs and the Diageos and what’s happening in that space. And then on the ground floor of, you know, what wine bars and restaurants are doing in New York and L.A. and throughout the entire country. Trying to really understand, are there innovations that operators can follow right now? What are people doing to try to stay afloat, to try to keep their businesses open? So our goal [is] to be a resource, to be a source for ideas and inspiration and then for consumers to really help all of us who love the drinks industry and who love going out to… if you’re in a position to donate to do that. So I think we…what we see in the hospitality industry is that we have a situation right now where entire careers, livelihoods, communities have essentially evaporated overnight and there’s just no telling when that will come back. And this is a workforce that can’t work from home, can’t take care of their customers now, can’t take care of probably their families and their rent. So, the message we want to get out is, we are a resource. We are here for you. We are dedicating all of our efforts to help keep people informed and provide ideas and pathways for recovery when that time comes.
Z: Well, as one of those people who had his career largely disappear all of a sudden, for one, I appreciate very much to have played a very small role in, and really appreciate what’s being done at VinePair, because as Adam said at the beginning of the episode it’s a good reminder that all of us are in this together, both within the beverage industry and obviously the country and the world as a whole. A couple of things I wanted to say, though, that I thought were really interesting about what’s come out of this period of time and may continue to emerge. One of them is this conversation that people are having around this idea of, what does it mean to have your food and your drinking life totally homebound, right? And for so many people, that has gone from being, all of us probably at one point or another made dinner at home or, at least ordered food in at home, [and] had opened a bottle of wine or a beer or whatever at home. But when your life suddenly is really confined to your house, as it is for a lot of people listening to this, or almost entirely confined to your house, it really does kind of force you to… it’s forced me in a lot of ways to kind of grapple with this question of like, how am I going to keep doing the things that bring me joy in life? And for me, that’s obviously a lot of things involving drinking. And I just… I’m so… I’ve been so excited to see all the people out there putting out tutorials on how to make cocktails and recipes, and obviously we’ve done that at VinePair and others have done it as well. And also this sort of ongoing conversation of, how can we keep socializing with the people that matter to us even if we can’t be with them in person? And so, obviously, the other part of that is, happy hour – virtual happy hours and dinner dates and stuff like that. And…and I mean, it’s not ideal for anyone, obviously, but it’s been really heartwarming for me to see.
A: I have to say, it has been really cool to see everyone sort of doing their thing, which is awesome. I’m curious, though, from your perspective, have any of you… so in New York we’ve seen a lot of restaurants and bars — well, in the Tri-State area — go to to-go and do cocktails to go and things like that. Have you taken advantage of any of it? If it has happened, what do you think about it in general? ‘Cause for me, I love that it’s happening and that it feels like this really fun thing. But also, it’s kind of destroying me inside because I’m like, this is happening out of desperation, because we have no support for this industry in this fucking country. And this is showing to me how much we don’t support this industry that is so vital to the United States. Like what was it… I think I saw a figure that was like almost 50 percent of our population could be considered to be employed by the service industry or something crazy like that, right? It’s a huge employer of jobs. And like the bone we’re throwing to these… to these owners and their employees, [in a] literal time of crisis is, “well you can still be open for delivery if you can figure it out.” Instead of like, look, a bailout’s coming. We got you.
E: And why is it the airlines are getting bailed out? I mean, the airlines are getting bailed out, but that is such a small fraction of workers in this country. If you look at the hospitality industry like you’re saying or the service industry, it really is a massive percentage of people in this country and that there is no framework or support system to really support them. It’s kind of…a travesty.
A: Yeah, it’s fucking infuriating! It’s one of these things where I was talking to a friend who lives in Atlanta last night, who’s in the music business, and he was sort of saying, we used to always think we were recession-proof, and clearly we’re learning we’re not either. A lot of people are losing their jobs there as well because concerts are getting canceled, etc. But he was in his car driving to a restaurant because he had read a lot of our coverage and was like, my wife and I decided we’re going to order out every night. But he’s like we have a kid at home and we’re now also saying, like, are we putting ourselves at risk? Because we’re… because a lot of the restaurants in Atlanta aren’t delivering, they’re asking you to come and pick it up curbside. So now I’m driving out every night to pick up dinner, curbside to bring home, because we want to support our favorite restaurants, we don’t want them to go under. But it’s so upsetting because no one… like that’s all they’re being given basically, is this this new license that allows them to do this. As opposed to what the government should be saying, which is like, look, a bailout like we’ll we got you down the road, there’ll be a lot of loans, we’ll be able to help, etc. I just don’t get it.
Z: Well, there’s three different problems here that all kind of work together. So one of them is the like needs of the business, right? Which is like any business, but restaurants and bars in particular tend to be very… operate on very thin margins. And so they don’t have the ability to just sort of keep open for an indefinite period of time when they’re running a loss. And so there’s the real question, which I think is a valid one, [which] is basically what number of restaurants can realistically even pivot to delivery and/or pick up or whatever, some sort of non-dine-in format and continue to basically make ends meet? And I think the answer is, it can’t be very many, because if delivery and takeout were that profitable, that’s all people would do. And obviously, these are different circumstances and there’s maybe much more appetite for that than there would be traditionally. But there’s a reason that sit-down service has been the staple of American dining for a long time. So there’s the financial aspect of it. There’s also the other question of this, which is, frankly, I hate to be the person that’s like… none of us know how long this is going to last. And it’s one of those things where if you think about it, OK, maybe for a week or two, people are kind of willing to go along with, “Yeah I’m gonna get dinner out every night. I’m going to support other businesses.” But how many people are making enough money where they can, even if it’s less expensive than a sit-down meal, [to] truly [afford] to get takeout or delivery food every night? I mean, there are some people who certainly can. But a lot of us, even if we were inclined to support the industry, even someone like me who’s worked in it, we can’t, you know, my… my family can’t afford to order high-end takeout on a regular basis that it would… that it would take to keep some of these businesses afloat. And so for us there, there’s that balance of, OK, well, I certainly want to keep this industry alive because it’s been my employer for my adult life. But it’s also a recognition that, if we knew that this was a one-month long issue, that would be one thing. But I think [hopefully] no one is under the misapprehension that [there’s] gonna be an end date and everything goes back to normal. Like at best, we’re talking about probably many months, if not years of a slow recovery. And we’re just… people trying to hang on for now is fine. But I think that the conversation that’s going to come out of this, and it’s already starting and some of the leading lights in food and drink are talking about it is, the industry is gonna be fundamentally changed by this. And what that change looks like is still very open to discussion and interpretation and changing via events and how people behave. But we’re not going to go back to February 2020 levels of… or not the restaurant and bar industry, certainly not for a long time and possibly never.
A: Yeah, I think there’s gonna be a massive shakeout. I think that there’s gonna be a lot of people who sort of re-evaluate if this is the career that they want anymore. I mean, it’s… look, I think there’s a lot of people who are going to re-evaluate after this crisis whether the place they live is where they want to live anymore, right? Like I was talking about that with Naomi, my wife. We were sitting in the apartment thinking like, “we’ve seen a lot of our friends choose in the last week, when they knew that they were gonna have to work from home, choose to go somewhere else,” right? Whether that was to a friend’s house upstate or whether that was like… they have kids and they decided… which good I mean, look up to them to go to a family member’s, right? To help with the kid. But because they said they didn’t want to be in New York during this trying time, I think that that’s making you really evaluate. Then do you want to be in New York long-term? Same for probably people who are in Atlanta, Seattle, etc. who might have left. And additionally, I think… I’ve received lots of texts from friends in the industry being like, “I love this industry, but now I’m wondering, is this what I really want to do?” And I think it’s going to be really tough. I think you’re right Zach, I don’t know if we’re going to go back to a time when people were just opening up crazy random concepts all over the place. And, you know, it seemed like every new place had a hot opening and it just doesn’t feel that way right now. And I think that a lot of it is because people in the industry are seeing how insignificant they are to a lot of members of the government. Like… why are they not talking about this? I just…I really… And so that’s why I did want to focus some of our conversation like, how can everyone support them? Who cares deeply about this industry like we do because we’re not getting it from our elected leaders right now. So I think the biggest thing first, right? Anyone who’s listening to this podcast, you need to call your congressman, your senators, and you need to say to them, where is the bailout for the hospitality industry?
E: Right. Exactly.
A: The Executive Branch is talking very loudly about a bailout for the airlines, where is the bailout for the hospitality industry, right? What is the plan going to be moving forward? There is a fundamental part… to support a fundamental part of American life? Because they’re not getting it. And then I would say to you, if you’re a listener and you run a company right now, [or] are part of a company that is doing quite well in this time, which we know there are. We know that off-premise alcohol sales have been very high recently. How can you help? Because this is, again, a very important part of our entire industry. A lot of these restaurants and bars are the first places that they discover your products. So I know we’ve seen some really cool stuff happen so far, right? Guinness pledged five hundred thousand dollars to a bunch of bars and restaurants. Jameson did the same thing, right? But what other brands are gonna step up and do that? Because these are the brands I think that will gain a lot of love from the industry moving forward by showing that they’re there for them. I understand that not every brand has that financial capacity, but those that do I think it’s important to think about stepping up.
E: Yeah, I think they’ll generate a lot of goodwill. Absolutely.
A: Erica, I know that you’ve been working on a lot of other ways, though, so can you give us some ideas of ways that we can all help?
E: Yeah, definitely. [I’ll] list some of the different organizations that we know are doing a good job and that already have funds in place. No need to take notes, this is all at giveback.vinepair.com. I’ll go through four of the national ones, but on our site, you’ll see a lot more regional organizations and foundations that you can also give to. And if people in industry are listening, or if other organizations are listening who would like to be listed, please just contact us at firstname.lastname@example.org. So, the first one I’ll talk about is the Restaurant Workers Community Foundation. This is a 501(c)(3). It’s created by and for restaurant workers and it now has a Covid-19 Crisis Relief Fund. So this relief fund is for individual workers. And another part of it is going to zero interest loans to businesses for when they are able to reopen. So that’s a good place to donate if you are able to. The next one is the United States Bartenders Guild, that’s a nonprofit that operates in 50 different cities around the U.S. and they are doing grants for bartenders and their families who’ve been affected by Covid-19. You don’t need to be a member to apply for a grant. And if you want to donate any funds to this grant, know that Jameson Whiskey has pledged $500,000 to the fund directly. And then they’re also matching up to $100,000 in additional donations. The advocacy group One Fair Wage: They started an emergency fund to provide cash assistance to tipped workers and service workers who’ve been affected by Covid-19. The organization is providing these grants to as many eligible workers as possible. So right now they’ve said that they…it’s two $213 per every eligible worker. And that number was chosen to highlight the current $2.13 sub-minimum wage for tipped workers. And then the last one that’s on our national list is the Dining Bonds Initiative from supportrestaurants.org. And that allows anyone to purchase gift certificates at the participating restaurants for 25 percent below face value. But then when the restaurants reopen you, they’re redeemable for full value. So that allows the restaurants to both receive an influx of cash right now and a guarantee of future business. So those are some of the main funds and foundations that we’re highlighting. But again, this is an evolving list. I literally am receiving emails around the clock from organizations who are approaching me saying that they’re going to be doing wine auctions and all sorts of different types of fundraisers and so forth that are just coming together. So as the details evolve we’ll be sharing that on the site and we’ll have it pinned up at the top of our NAV and you’ll see it’s giveback.vinepair.com.
Z: I want to come back to something Adam mentioned a little bit ago, which is sort of this idea of how producers, you know, wineries, distilleries, breweries, etc. can potentially give back. Both because they may be less affected at the moment, because for many of them, they can still sell direct-to-consumer or through retail channels, and also because as Adam mentioned there, for a lot of people, the restaurant or bar is the point where they first try the product. And lastly, because frankly, they have always operated on higher margins than restaurants and bars in the first place. And I think that, obviously there’s no virtue in drowning yourself to try and save someone else, so make sure that you’re financially in a position that you can help. But I would really call upon those parts of the industry in particular to look at what they can do and whether that’s… Yeah, fundraisers, whether that’s, looking to add staff, if at all possible. And obviously, we all understand that these are difficult times for everyone. And certainly with people mostly having to work from home, there’s plenty of industries that don’t have the capacity to take on additional work from labor. But there are a lot of people out of work. There are a lot of people who have no idea what the future holds for them. And that support, I also really hope and to emphasize, the best you can do is try to provide support directly to the hourly workers who are most at risk here, who have been… all or not all, but many of whom have lost their jobs or are going to be relying on what are, at this point, insufficient unemployment benefits. I mean, I’m currently waiting to get my first unemployment check from the state of Washington. And while it’s certainly going to be better than zero money, it’s not anywhere near what I was making on a regular basis. And that’s how unemployment is designed. It’s not designed to be an exact replacement for lost income. And so for a lot of people in the restaurant industry and in the beverage industry generally, returning to work is going to be challenging. And so obviously, there’s a lot of much larger, longer societal conversation about what do we do with all these people who are going to need jobs and for whom the industry that they’ve worked in may not really be a place that they can find a job for a while, but for the time being, those people need to be able to pay their rent, presumably buy groceries, do the things that they have to do to literally stay alive. And so the production side of the industry can, I think, help maybe pick up at least a little bit of that slack, both financially and maybe in terms of work.
A: Couldn’t have said it better, man. I think that is the perfect place, I feel like to wrap up this episode of the VinePair podcast. Again, we’ll be coming out with much more regular conversations with people in the industry that are affected by Covid-19 over the next few weeks. Love to hear your thoughts at email@example.com. And then as always, if you have anything to add, if there’s something that you want us to talk about, especially surrounding this crisis and what’s happening to all of us in this amazing industry that we all love, please let us know. And with that, I’m going to say we’ll see you all here back next week.
Z: Sounds great!
A: Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair podcast, if you like what you’ve heard please rate us or review us wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps people discover the show.
Now for the credits: The VinePair podcast is produced by myself and Zach Geballe, and is engineered by Nick Patri. We’re recorded out of cloud studios in Seattle, Washington and also in our New York City headquarters. I’d also like to give a special shout out to my co-founder Josh Malin and the rest of the VinePair staff who help us conceive of the podcast every single week. Thanks again for listening.