This week, Jake goes out with comedian George Civeris. The two discuss being intimidated by well-dressed people, etiquette for hosting parties, Instagram-forward restaurants, and pretentious food people. Tune in for more.

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Jake Cornell: Wait. I want to try the Orig first because I feel like that’s important.

George Civeris: Is that the Orig?

J: This is Orig.

G: Okay. This tastes very — this is giving early 2000 SOBE to me.

G: Yes, that’s exactly what it is.

J: It’s just funny because it’s non-alcoholic. I guess it’s true about alcoholic beverages too, the branding, it’s like the flavor — what am I trying to say? You could easily brand this like a children’s product, but you put this chic product on it and now it’s for liberal arts students that live in Brooklyn.

G: This needs to be fizzier.

J: Wait, I want to try the lime and salt one because that feels posher because there’s salt.

G: I agree.

J: Wait. Oh, shocked by the color immediately.

G: Whoa.

J: Were you expecting this?

G: No. Why would it be pink?

J: Why are you putting it in a green can if it’s a different color? Significantly better.

G: Yes, I like this a lot better.

J: I will actually drink this.

G: I maintain that it could be fizzier.

J: I’m happy with the fizz level on this. I would actually definitely — wait, I want to go back to the old one just to compare back. Indisputably the lime one’s better.

G: Yes, the lime one’s better. Wait, I’m literally taking out my notebook because I took notes about things I wanted to say.

J: Wait, I love you. You’re the only guy that’s ever done this.

G: It’s very basic things, but when something’s about a specific topic where I know you at some point you’re going to be like, “What restaurants do you like,” and I know that if you were to ask me that I would then-

J: You’d go blank?

G: – shut down. Not that I now have a great answer, but I was like, just put it in with one thing that will jog your memory.

J: Sure. Then this is the Hibiscus Lemonade HOP WTR.

G: Oh, oh, wow.

J: This used to be colder, but it’s good.

G: Yes.

J: Grab and try those.

G: Maybe the temperature is actually my issue with the other ones, too. If they were on ice, I would like them better.

J: Actually, I will say I’m fully happy with this one and will just drink.

Katie Brown: Next time we’ll have an ice bucket.

J: Is there a third?

G: Sorry, I didn’t mean that as like…

J: Oh my God, is there a third flavor of this brand? What is it?

K: Ginger. I can-

J: I immediately don’t need that.

G: You don’t want that?

J: For me, I’m kind of like I just have enough ginger beverages I like. I don’t need a new one.

G: Oh, understood.

J: I’ll do a ginger kombucha. I’ll do a ginger ale or a ginger beer. I just don’t think we need more ginger beverages under my care.

G: That’s it. I just feel ginger is one of those flavors that can make a non-alcoholic thing. There’s a reason why you like so many ginger-flavored things.

J: Sure. It has the bite.

G: Like a ginger beer, I’m like, “Oh, this doesn’t even need alcohol because it’s flavorful.”

J: Anyway, have you had this? I feel like I talk about this on every podcast episode, but have you, pardon me, but we just drank three fizzy beverages, I’m going to be burping the whole episode. Have you ever had the Phony Negroni?

G: No.

J: Oh, it’s this new non-alcoholic Negroni by St. Agrestis and it’s actually, truly very bad.

G: First, I’m actually doing sober weekdays this month.

J: Nice.

G: Yet I haven’t — do you know what, I’m obsessed — not obsessed with, in fact, I begrudgingly drink non-alcoholic beer.

J: I actually like non-

G: Do you do Athletic Brewing?

J: Athletic is good. The one I think is the best is Bitburger Drive. Have you had this one?

G: No.

J: It’s a brown glass bottle with a white label. I just think it is a very refreshing non-alcoholic beer. I like non-alcoholic beer.

G: I like non-alcoholic beer. Then I’ve been doing a lot of just soda and bitters at home, which is depressing but also, whatever.

J: Are you normally on a month where you’re not doing sober weekdays? Are you a cocktail at the end of the day kind of guy?

G: Wait, are we recording?

J: Yes.

G: Oh my God, I did not know.

J: Sorry.

G: Okay, from now on I’m performing. What was the question? I’m going to answer so intelligently and wittily.

J: What if we’d talk for an hour and you’re like, “When are we going to start recording?” I’m like, “That was the episode.”

G: I’m actually happy I asked, because I was truly really laid back, not being charming at all.

J: You were being charming.

G: Thank you. I also truly came in and immediately criticized the way in which you offered me a tasting menu.

J: Wait, how did I do that?

G: I was like, “Oh, this could be better with ice,” but I was just taking my role as sort of a taster seriously.

J: No, but I started by telling you this one should be colder. I said that, you’re fine.

G: You were asking me if I do a cocktail at the end of the day.

J: I meant normally when you’re not doing sober weekday month, are you someone who like, “The work day is over, let me pour myself a cocktail”?

G: No. I don’t pour myself a cocktail. I do have wine with dinner, honestly, most days, but I grew up like my parents-

J: I was going to say is that just growing up Greek?

G: Yes. I’ve never seen my parents drunk, but they have exactly one and a half glasses of wine with dinner and that’s just always been.

J: 100 percent.

G: In fact, I just quit, but until recently, I was part of a wine club that would send me four wines a month. It’s just a really nice thing to have a bunch of wines in the home.

J: It’s so nice.

G: You know when something is a monthly charge, you forget that you’re even paying it? In my mind, I was like, “Oh, well, I have all this free wine.”

J: That was me with my greatest subscription. It was the greatest thing and one of my greatest losses recently.

G: Oh, totally. The secret to spending money is just let six hours pass and then you’ll forget about it.

J: Absolutely.

G: It really is. That is my overarching strategy with not just money, but food. It’s like if you eat something unhealthy, you’re like, “Yes, just give it a couple of hours, you’re going to forget you did it.”

J: Absolutely. I think that’s 100 percent.

G: It’s like wasting time, you’re like, “Yes, I guess yesterday, I wasted the entire day, but now’s today.”

J: Oh, yes. Also you find out that in the way that in school, if you did something late, they could be like, “We’re docking your grade.” You realize as an adult, it’s like no one has the ability. Obviously, eventually you can get in trouble, but it’s like, you’re boss can’t be like, “I’m taking 15 percent off your pay.”

G: This week, one of the reasons I’ve come in so refreshed is because this week I took the whole week off of work just on my own to regroup and catch up on various things and also to relax because I hadn’t taken any time off in six months.

J: That’s something.

G: I didn’t take any time off during the holiday, so I was like, “I’ve never done anything like this before. I just have a week randomly off in the middle of January.”

J: I want to say good for you for not calling it a staycation. I want to say thank you for that

G: No, because honestly, the thing is I was trying to describe — I haven’t decided what this week because I at the same time want to “catch up” on stuff and creative projects that I don’t have time to do when I have a job, but then I also am like, I also want to relax and you can’t have it both ways and it’s causing some stress where I’m like, “Wait.” My goal is to both have a self-care week while also catching up on all my emails and having meetings.

J: It’s also that thing when your job it’s the truly vicious cycle of when your job is something that you love doing, your career or something you love doing, not doing it isn’t fun, but then also doing it feels like work, so you never know peace.

G: Yes, it’s hell.

J: I’ve never had the 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. I do envy people who have a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. and then they’re like, “I’m done with the workday, and that’s it.”

G: I’ve never made a lot of money, but I’ve always somehow — I’m so terrified of not having a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. that I almost shoot myself in the foot by somehow managing to find something that’s anywhere from completely unrelated to my ambitions, to marginally related to them.

J: Sure.

G: I would say for the bulk of my comedy time, except when I’ve had actual writing jobs, I’ve had a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. job, and then it’s like you take a little break for dinner and then you’re going out and doing shows.

J: I need you to understand, I find you so impressive because I literally would not have a single shred of a career if I had done it that way. I couldn’t do it. There’s no way in which I could have done it.

G: Because you’d be tired?

J: Yes. I did restaurants so strictly the entire time in the earlier part. There was a good, I don’t know, what, five years in New York where I was not having a successful comedy career and I think one part of that was because I was doing ECB and two, I was working in a restaurant like 40 hours a week and just actually did not have the creative juices left after that to do anything comedic.

G: In restaurant work, sorry if this is an obvious thing, but it’s in the evenings, so were you just not performing when you had work?

J: It was a mix. There was a stretch there. There was a few years stretch there where I was a lunch bartender, which was gorgeous, but still it was a full time job.

G: Also, you don’t get as many tips, like you just make less money?

J: No, but I did that. I was like it’s worth the less money to work 11 a.m. to 5 p.m. That was nice.

G: Do you know Lillian DeVane or was she before ?

J: No.

G: Lillian lived here for a long time and in fact, moved to Oregon last year. I don’t know if she’s still doing comedy, but I think she’s just taking a break from it and randomly is going to a fully funded graduate program, but she’s one of the funniest people and a very good comic. She was very high up as a bartender. She was a head bartender for, oh God, Chez Ma Tante.

J: Oh, f*ck that’s huge.

G: Then before that she was at Marlow and Sons, and she was at all these big places.

J: Yes, that’s no joke.

G: I think what she was doing, Lillian if you’re listening, I’m sorry if this is wrong, but I think she would work three days a week make so much money, because they’re really nice places and you get great tips and then do comedy the rest of those nights and that’s enough money to-

J: I was always chasing that and I did have it for brief periods of time, but it’s really hard to find. I’m sure she probably had this experience to an extent, it’s very hard to find restaurants that are making that level of money. At those levels, a lot of people are working career-level that do it three nights a week and then go do something else. They’re like, “Well, we do need you five.” Do you know what I mean?

G: Totally, of course.

J: I think that’s amazing that she was able to do that. I also refused to be a good bartender. I was good at fast bartending and I was good at serving a lot of people, but when people are like, “We’re going to do this thing where you origami an orange peel, and put that on the Old Fashioned,” that I couldn’t bring myself to do it.

G: I feel there’s something I’ve struggled with with things I have done in the past as day jobs or things outside of work. You don’t want to just feel like you’re sleepwalking through the day, so you do ultimately start caring against your better judgment-

J: You have to care.

G: -about the things that you are doing. Ultimately, it’s not like the alternative is better. I don’t want to feel like I’m wasting my day.

J: My thing always was it makes my boss’s job harder and my coworkers’ job harder if I’m bad at my job, and I have too much guilt and shame to let that happen.

G: 100 percent.

J: Is it better for my career if I showed up and gave nothing because I would’ve still gotten by? You do not have to do — you can coast and get by in this life. I should have been doing that, but I couldn’t bring myself to do it. That’s why I’m saying it’s so impressive to me that you are so funny and have done so much great work.

G: Thank you.

J: I don’t understand how you had the energy because when I had to go back to restaurants after I did start making money doing comedy and was doing it a lot more as work, when I started going back to restaurants, I was like, “Oh, I actually physically can’t do this.”

G: I know.

J: There was no brain power left

G: The thing is, what I feel happens with me is there are just periods of being on top of it and periods of just so not being on top of it.

J: Sure.

G: I can let my inbox get to the hundreds and just miss truly an important email that is directing — someone will literally email me and be like, “You’re getting your own show.” I’ll literally miss it, if I’m in a month where I feel overwhelmed.

J: That’s the worst.

G: I’m a naturally very anxious person and it all just feeds into my anxiety. A day will go by and I’ll be like, “Did I do anything today? I genuinely can’t remember.”

J: My thing is I don’t understand the concept of working hard because when I worked in restaurants, you physically know when you’ve worked hard because it’s a physical experience. When I’m doing comedy work I’m like, “Was this working hard?” I feel mentally exhausted, but I’m physically fine and I could go out for drinks right now, I could do stuff. Does this count as working hard? Do you know what I mean?

G: The worst to me is doing creative work solo.

J: It’s actually impossible.

G: It’s legitimately impossible. You have no idea, you don’t even know what to compare it to. You genuinely don’t know if you’ve had a successful or not successful four hours of writing or whatever, and I’m being very ambitious and optimistic with that number.

J: Four hours of writing is actually, it’s like making eggs.

G: It’s like 20 minutes, yes.

J: It’s like making eggs, like taking a shower.

G: It’s like watching a clip of Jennifer Coolidge or Seth Meyers and being like, “Well, she’s in the industry so this counts.”

J: I’m researching, I’m watching a video about the Bimini Road, that is truly what I followed down the rabbit hole the other day. It’s something like that. I don’t think a single person’s being like, “I’m going to sit down and write,” and they’re just doing it.

G: I don’t know. Maybe this says more about my own issues, but I’ve always felt lazy and unproductive no matter what my actual output is.

J: Same, 100 percent.

G: Part of me is like, “Oh, maybe everyone feels that way.” Then part of me is like, “Well, if you look around, some people somehow really get it done.”

J: I know. That is what I miss about when I was really doing TikTok two years ago. It did feel really nice every day I’m putting out a video.

G: Totally.

J: Then you realize like, “Okay, but is the quality of this what I want to be putting out?”

G: Sure.

J: That’s where it pivots out. There was something incredibly like, “The video’s out for the day, I have outputted for the day. It is doing well or not doing well, but I have done my work for the day and here’s this product.”

G: Totally. That’s probably my favorite thing. It’s a double-edged sword, but I would say one of my favorite things about my job at Gawker because I’m an editor at Gawker, I am not a writer, I’m an editor. I wake up and each day I have to assign and then edit a series of short posts on the news, regardless of any longer essays or other stuff that takes more weeks and days, whatever. There just needs to be content on the site. By 1 p.m., there are anywhere from three to five posts on the site and those need to be written that morning. There’s something about just like a factory element of that.

J: No, that would be satisfying.

G: Where I’m like, “Oh, by lunch, I can literally go on and look at things that I have — I work with very good writers, so sometimes it’s very little work to edit them, but then sometimes it’s like, “Oh, I get to do my little punch ups and put in something and move something around, maybe I had a good idea that I assigned that wouldn’t have been whatever.” There is something about the immediacy of that. That’s also why stand-up is so fulfilling.

J: Exactly.

G: Is because it’s the most immediate feedback you could possibly get. God, I promise I’ll start being funny after this, but I feel like I’m being very like WTF with Mark Marron, but the issue I think probably with those of us feeling lazy or unproductive is because you have the experience of something being so immediate, then when you have to do something that’s more long-term, you crack. You’re like, “Well, why am I-”

J: I also have investment anxiety, it’s like a commitment-phobes.

G: Yes. 100 percent.

J: Where it’s like I’m afraid of putting in long-term effort onto something because what if it doesn’t get picked up? What if it doesn’t sell? What if it doesn’t? It’s like you have to release that because you’ll never do anything productive if you don’t, but it isn’t so hard for me to do work on things that would be life-changing dream coming true. I will spend days not doing it or like it’s open on my computer and I’m trying to do it, but I can’t bring myself to do it because it’s like — it’s like the fear of investing in something for it to then fail and break your heart. Something like a tweet or stand up, it can go really great and if it doesn’t there’s like — it’s why I used to do improv because there was no risk and there was high reward, but the high reward wasn’t actually that high.

G: It’s sort of like at the end of the day you are still doing stand-up or improv. Both sort of.

J: No self-degradation. It’s degradation.

G: You’re debasing yourself.

J: Absolutely.

G: In front of tourists and/or Brooklyn gentrifiers, so truly pick your place.

J: Which are tourists.

G: Yes.

J: All of it is so brutal.

G: Anyway, I love restaurants.

J: Okay, let’s talk about it. Did you grow up in a family going to restaurants?

G: I would say we went to restaurants a normal amount. I spent my early childhood in Greece, then we moved to the States and I lived in suburban New Jersey for like six or seven years. Then when I was like 12 or 13, we moved back to Greece. If you add it up, it’s like 50-50. When we were in New Jersey, we had a local Italian place called Danielle. It’s what you picture suburban New Jersey used to, it’s nothing impressive. My mom also, she then sort of snapped and became a really good cook later in life, but in her New Jersey era, she had three young kids, she was making meatloaf and dry chicken, whatever.

J: Absolutely.

G: Then I feel like when we moved back to Greece, it was a real glow-up for the whole family in the sense of-

J: Where in Greece for you?

G: Athens. My parents, I think although they loved living in the States, I think when we all moved back to Greece, they were sort of like, “Oh my God, we’re not immigrants anymore.” I could almost feel them exhale in a way, they were just so happy.

J: Yes, that’s so cool.

G: Again, they did not face racism or anything. You know what I mean? We’re white, they were very well educated. It’s not that, it’s more just there was a difference between being an immigrant and being back in your home.

J: In your own culture.

G: In terms of food, my mom would be a lot more ambitious with her cooking. We’d go out more. I don’t know, I feel like also, Greece itself was sort of developed a lot while we were away and then had better restaurants and stuff like that. We went to a few, but nothing super — I wasn’t super into restaurants or anything. I feel like when I got, I hate to use the phrase like into food, was that I went to college in California, in the Bay Area and this was in the aftermath of Alice Waters culture of like-

J: I’m uneducated and don’t know what that is.

G: Like farm-to-table, basically.

J: Is Alice Waters Chez Panisse?

G: Yes, exactly.

J: Okay, great.

G: Everything that now is so cliche, locally sourced vegetables and like veggie-forward meals and cooking a single egg on a woodfire oven, blah, blah, blah. Also, the Mexican food is so good in California. It was just such a big part of the culture, and then I moved to San Francisco proper after college. San Francisco is just such a big food city, and I was dating someone for six years that was from California, an incredible chef. To this day, maybe the best home cook I know. Could just walk into a kitchen, open a fridge, there’s three ingredients, they would make a restaurant-quality meal.

J: That’s so f*cking hot.

G: I almost became a character in a movie that’s like, “You got something and you’ve got to pursue it.” To this day, we are still friends and stuff, but I’m almost like, God, if they opened a restaurant, I genuinely still think it would be a hit. Anyway, that was my way in and my ex, it was just a huge part of their life. That’s where we would spend our money. There was always like, what was the new place, blah, blah? Then we’d go to L.A. where they’re from, and their parents would take us out, blah, blah. That was the beginning of my getting to know restaurant culture. Then the following thing happened, which is that I moved to Boston. Boston is potentially the worst food city globally.

J: I didn’t know you lived in Boston.

G: Yes, that’s when I started comedy.

J: Were you out?

G: Yes, I was out. In fact, I would argue that because I was often the only gay person on lineups or whatever, I actually think it was very beneficial to me. I actually have very positive — the comedy portion of my Boston years is a very positive one. I feel like it was the most I’ve ever written. It was the most productive I’ve ever been at literally just writing stand-up. I would go to open mics every night, I had a weekly show that did well. It was just like the comedy element of it was good, but going from San Francisco to Boston, in terms of food-

J: I can imagine.

G: – it’s truly like jumping when you think there’s an extra step on the stairs and then you fall. I was in shock.

J: It’s better now and I just say this because I do have a couple friends who listen to this podcast who work in restaurants in Boston, the food scene in Boston is better now.

G: I also might have not known where to go.

J: How many years ago was this?

G: Seven.

J: I think the food scene in Boston has changed a lot.

G: All I know is that I was truly — I kept an open mind and I was reading Eater Boston or whatever the equivalent was, I don’t know and I was like, “Okay, these are the Top 50 restaurants. I’m going to try this one. I’m going to try this one.” At every stage, I was going home like what was that?

J: Yes, it’s tough.

G: Then I moved to New York six, seven years ago and I got back into it.

J: Have you lived in Brooklyn the entire time you lived in New York?

G: Yes. I lived in Crown Heights first. Then I lived in Park Slope, then I moved to Crown Heights again. Then last year, I moved in with my boyfriend at his place in Brooklyn Heights, which is a whole other world.

J: Before we get into the nitty gritty of restaurants you like, I do just want to say and this relates to going out, George’s holiday party this year, expertly hosted.

G: Thank you so much.

J: Expertly hosted.

G: First of all it was an honor to have you there.

J: It was an honor to be there. It was an honor to be there.

G: I feel like it was such a fun mix of people. Did you end up meeting a lot of non-comedy people?

J: No, I mostly hung out the entire night with Richard and Cole.

G: And Cole?

J: We were on a couch really getting into it, I feel like. I actually feel like because we got stuck, not stuck in like a bad way, but there was a crowd of people, so we were just sitting on the couch in this sea of people. I talked to them. Oh, no, that’s not true because then I got up. Does Patrick Sullivan count as a comedy person? He’s so funny, but he doesn’t do it for.

G: He is funny. He does not do comedy, but is in the extended. I feel like he’s in the extended-

J: He’s an MC?

G: Yes, the MC.

J: He’s the comedy MC. I guess no, I didn’t meet that many non-comedy people that night.

G: It was a pretty well-attended, if I do say so myself, soiree, but actually comedy-wise, I think because it was the week between Christmas and New Year’s, a lot of people had gone to visit their family.

J: It was comedy-like for sure.

G: Very comedy. I was shocked because I remember when we were making the guest list, I was telling my boyfriend, I was like, “Well, just so you know, I have a lot of comedy friends, and honey, they travel in packs. I just want you to know, I might only invite my close friends, but they’ll bring people and it will be at least 200 comedians.” Then it ended up being truly 11.

J: It was. Then it was, we were joking — me, Cole and Richard were joking the non-comedy people there were so chic. So suddenly chic that I was like, “I feel if people knew my credit score, I would be evicted.” Not in a bad way but-

G: Honey, welcome to my life.

J: I was just like, “Wow, this is a chic, chic —” You know when people are wearing a slouchy sweatshirt but you know it’s $250?

G: Well, I just want to say — this is in no way a brag because they’re not my friends, but my boyfriend used to be — he’s a magazine writer, and he used to cover only fashion for many, many years. Many of those people were in fact, professional fashion designers. That’s what you were picking up on.

J: It’s also like to be living in New York, dating a magazine writer is a thing that happens in romcoms that doesn’t exist. It’s so amazing that you really achieved that.

G: It really is giving “Trainwreck” starring Amy Schumer.

J: It’s actually really stunning that you achieved that.

G: It’s sort of-

J: He’s so sweet.

G: He is, yes. Well, he’s also from New York. He’s a little older than I am. It’s very New York when-

J: I don’t think I knew he was a fashion writer.

G: He covered essentially 90 percent fashion for a big chunk of his career. Now it’s more broadly arts and culture and media.

J: Okay. It makes more sense now why everyone was so chic.

G: No. Literally-

J: That actually makes sense.

G: -it was legitimately fashion designers.

J: Just like well-structured clothing. Hardlines.

G: Yes. The thing is, I was about to just sort of talk about how at first I was so intimidated by all these people and almost in a defensive way went into it being like, “Well, they think I’m trash. I’ll be standoffish first.”

J: You’re my personality to a T.

G: You know what I mean? This is early on in our relationship. He took me to a fashion thing. There was this guy who was truly dressed like Hansel in “Zoolander.” You could tell that everything he — it was just everything was so on point. Even though it looked-

J: Curated.

G: Yes, whatever. I was just like, “Well, he probably thinks I’m trash.” I’m wearing Uniqlo jeans, so I’m going to sort of be — I didn’t want to — I think the worst thing you could do in that situation is be like, “Oh my God, you look incredible. Where’s that from?” You sort of show that you’re — that you don’t know. I was just being quiet and answering monosyllabically. At some point, I just looked at him and I was like, “Oh, he thinks I’m a huge b*tch.” Also, I think we underestimate how difficult it is for people to meet our friends, our comedian friends. It’s almost worse.

J: I recently went through this where I was hanging out with — I was seeing someone and I was hanging out with their friends. What’s that thing of, I was saying your friend — I was complaining. I wasn’t complaining about his friends. I was complaining about one of his friends. I was like, “I found that party overwhelming X, Y, Z.” He was like, “Do you know what a comedian party is like?” He had come to my birthday party which was me and Marsha. He was like, “Do you know what that was like?” I was like, “Fine?” He was like, “No.”

G: No. It’s actually maybe the worst community to be an outsider in, and I include literally going to Davos and being with millionaires. Legitimately, I think it is more alienating for a normal person who works in marketing to enter you and Marsha’s party than it is for me to go to Davos.

J: The thing is, I think across all of it, it’s true that it’s all just actually what you’re projecting on.

G: 100 percent

J: No one at my birthday party thought they were too cool to talk to anyone.

G: No, it’s not even about coolness though. It’s about people constantly doing bits and-

J: I don’t hang out with those comedians.

G: Sure.

J: It’s not that I don’t hang out with them. I don’t do bits. I’m too sincere of a person. It’s my failure as a comedian. I’m bad at bits.

G: Yes. You need to work on that.

J: No, I know. My manager calls me every day. She’s like, “You’re not doing bits at the parties. They’re talking about it.” I just can’t handle — I spin out if we’re in an actual social situation but people are talking fake. I don’t mean fake, like being fake, but having a fake joke conversation and we’re not on stage. I’m like, “Guys, I need actual human connection.” I love for the people that love it. I also shut down in those spaces, so I think I forget that — but I will shut it down. I will either leave the situation or just when there’s a lull, be like, “Whose parents are divorced?” I’ll just bring up something sincere, but it’s like I forget that not everyone can do that. I understand if you work in marketing and people are doing bits, I would lose my mind. I guess it is a more impenetrable social dynamic than others.

G: I know, but you know what, it’s all we have.

J: It’s all we have.

G: It’s truly like I feel this way more and more by the year. I know we’re not talking about restaurants. I promise we’ll get back to-

J: We’re talking about going out though.

G: Okay, fine.

J: It’s not-

G: I’m going to restaurants with Jake Cornell. I remember when I first started doing comedy, I would notice that everyone’s friends were only comedians, and I almost prided myself in having a lot of friends from college or friends from other places, or friends from my jobs, whatever. I almost remember being like, “Note to self, don’t let go of these friends, otherwise you’ll become like all these other comedians who only hang out with comedians.” Of course, now I’m like, “I have become that.” I think there’s a cultish element where I’m very protective. I’m like, “This is all we have and all we know how to do and we have to stick together.

J: Especially when you start to build your voice off of the other people around you and that starts to get a little — you do need each other in that way. I think I’ll always have my best friends outside of comedy. I do think I need that to not lose my mind.

G: Ultimately, I do. I think there are fewer now than they used to-

J: Can I say that that was the biggest flex of your holiday party was being like, “Look at all the normies I know.”

G: Wow. Thank you.

J: That was actually such a powerful move to be like, “Wow, George has a normal healthy life.”

G: Well, yes. My college friends that were there are all so great and ultimately I was going to say just as interesting or more interesting than, I don’t know, people we know that write for TV or whatever.

J: Famously boring.

G: I don’t know. Anyway, I think that party really made me happy because I was like, “Oh.” Everyone was just getting along, I was so worried that people would have nothing to say to one another.

J: No, I just want to hit some high points of why I thought it was so chicly done.

G: Thank you.

J: First of all, the invitation, incredibly communicative. You will not be served dinner. There will be light food. Bring a bottle.

G: No kids.

J: No kids, and then, “sorry” in quotes. I just was like, “This is exactly what I want.” Then it’s gorgeous because everyone brings a bottle. There was plenty of wine, but it wasn’t crazy. There was a baklava and one other dish.

G: Yes. I went to-

J: Spanakopita, not baklava.

G: Well, in fact, my sister did end up bringing baklava. I went to, not Sahadi’s, but the other one that’s — whatever, it doesn’t matter. I went to one of the various Middle Eastern places on Atlantic and just got a giant thing of spanakopita that you could just put in the oven and reheat and then-

J: I will say I was one of three people that ate it, but that’s me at any party.

G: I myself had at least three of them.

J: Yes, I was hungry.

G: We said, “Bring a bottle or an ornament,” which I thought was genius not to toot my own horn then.

J: I thought it was pretty genius.

G: This was our first year having a tree and I don’t care enough about it to go out and buy expensive ornaments, but then it’s like, people love getting a gift and will get you a $25 one.

J: Cole made an ornament from their “Tár” screener.

G: Genius. Cole Escola took the screener of “Tár” and just put a string around it so that it was an ornament and then we had it on our tree until we took it down.

J: I really thought that was beautiful, but I thought — and then I just thought the way — also your home is very conducive to hosting. There’s multiple rooms, but they’re not-

G: I moved into that apartment in the last year and it’s the first time I’ve ever had an apartment where I could host people. I truly used to live in a studio that’s the size of this podcasting studio and it had roaches in it, so it really was a dream.

J: I think my apartment is somewhat good for hosting. I couldn’t have as many people as you had at the Christmas party, but I do think I’m going to host a small party soon and-

G: You should.

J: -you will be invited. I love hosting.

G: I know. I want to do more of it.

J: Wait, before we go into restaurants, something I always think about with hosting and I really waffle back and forth on this. I feel like it’s a very chic New York iconic move, but the sanitation of it, I’m constantly waffling back and forth on. Do you know what I’m going to say?

G: Are you talking about a premixed cocktail?

J: No, I’m very pro those.

G: Wait, let me think.

J: What’s a classic-

G: Shoes?

J: No, those are off. I’m a shoes off — It’s a classic thing that you feel — I feel like it’s a very New York thing to do at a party and there’s often photos of it.

G: Shrimp cocktail.

J: No, it’s a beverage-related practice.

G: Oh, punch bowl.

J: No.

G: No. Okay. Just say it.

J: The filling the bathtub with ice-

G: Oh.

J: -and using that as the beverage storage.

G: Wow.

J: I think it’s like a really fun thing. Whenever you see the photo of it and there’s Champagne in the bathtub, I’m like, “Cool.” It’s just next to the toilet.

G: We bought a nice thing from just IKEA that we put all the sparkling and white wine in. It worked out very well. It was $15.

J: I think that the idea of using the bathtub is fun, but I think, one, it’s annoying to be — I can’t get a drink until someone’s done in the toilet. Also, it’s just-

G: Then you’re pissing close to the-

J: Pissing and sh*tting just so close to the beverages.

G: Like open bottles maybe?

J: I feel like they have to come out and open, but it’s still the cans of beer, the bottles of beer.

G: No, I agree with — there is no reason to have anything edible next to the toilet.

J: I think I feel similarly.

G: Okay. That’s decided.

J: Great. I’m glad we’re in agreement about that. I’ve been thinking, because I was like, “Oh, that’d be so fun.” Then I was like, “No, it’s gross.” Let’s talk about restaurants.

G: Wait, before — I’m actually so happy you brought up hosting. It’s almost like — there’s something about restaurants generally, especially during and post “the pandemic” are so fraught because of various issues that it almost is more fun to think about hosting now. It’s expensive and I can’t do it all the time, but it feels more joyful to be like, “Ooh, maybe I’ll host a cocktail party then I’ll do a birthday dinner or something.”

J: There’s a lack of variables. That’s nice. People are coming into my home. I’m excited about hosting at my place because I live so close to other bars now that I could be like — and then at 11 p.m. we’re all going to go to — come on everybody, we’re all going to go to the Holler or do whatever or whatever and get everyone out of the house. If we all stay all night, great, but there’s an option if we feel like we need to go.

G: People are also so grateful for any tiny thing when you’re hosting. Let’s say you make one thing, you make a dessert. People are going to be in shock, and having a truly — or high on ecstasy-

J: Now I think you’re actually not giving yourself enough credit for how good of a host you are because I’ve been invited to some stinkers where you come over and you’re like, “Why am I here?”

G: Here’s what I’ll say. You shouldn’t have — I’m like, I promise I’m not thinking of anyone in particular.

J: Say first and last name

G: I just am trying to think if someone recently has done this that could possibly be — all I was going to say is it can’t be all Trader Joe’s frozen stuff. I feel like you can pick one thing. We had pigs and blankets that were just frozen. I don’t know where we got them, Costco or Trader Joe’s, whatever.

J: You also set the expectation of don’t come hungry. If there had been a cheese plate, that’s fine. You know what I mean?

G: Yes. I feel there should be three edible things. I think that’s enough.

J: I agree. I came, I ate beforehand, and so when I came and saw that you had a full tray of spanakopita, I was like, “That is so amazing.”

G: Thank you.

J: Set the expectation low and then-

G: Totally.

J: -over serve. I was like, “Genius.” It was to the point where I found out because Matt’s been doing this party for years. I was like, “He’s a seasoned host.”

G: Oh, absolutely.

J: That was it. It all came together because I was truly — I think about these things. I love parties, I love going out. The whole time I was like, “This is an expertly hosted party.” Then when it was revealed, like Matt — I was small talking with someone, so clearly, this is after I departed from Richard and Cole, they were like, “Oh, I used to come when it was just Matt and now it’s Matt and George.” I was like, “Oh, this makes sense. He’s been doing this for a long time.”

G: Yes, that is the unspoken thing which I should have mentioned is that — we’ve been dating for three years, before we ever met, he and actually I think two of his close college friends would always host a Christmas party that legitimately to this day you meet any of Matthew’s friends, they’ll be like, “Remember the Christmas parties? When are you going to —” Before this one like, “When are you going to start doing them again? Blah, blah, blah.”

J: Wow.

G: I think it was years of perfecting the art. I don’t know. I don’t know what to tell you. All I did was buy some spanakopita. It did make me excited to host more. I was thinking maybe I’ll host an Oscars party or something.

J: Oh.

G: That’s fun.

J: That would be gorge. That’s so fun. Wait, so restaurants, let’s get into it.

G: Where do we start?

J: Where is — okay. It’s Thursday night, Matt’s like, “I want to go out to dinner.”

G: I’ll say this. I feel like this is actually a journey many people have heard about restaurants, which is that when I was younger and foodie culture was first becoming popular, I was a sh*tty, yuppie, scum just like, “I have to try the new pickled onion, whatever.” I was obsessed with anything that was new. I would always read the Tables For Two, call them in the New Yorker and I would always read Eater and GrubStreet and whatever. I was always like, “What is the new restaurant? Blah, blah, blah.” Then you start to realize that is such a bad strategy because-

J: It’s also just making a job out of a leisure activity.

G: Yes, 100 percent.

J: That’s the thing. It’s like, “I can’t be bothered.”

G: I feel like, much like many other people in New York, I’ve started going — I was going to say, going back to the classics, but I can’t pretend I was ever into the classics to begin with, but it’s just-

J: When you say classics, are you talking about Kin’s?

G: Literally, ordering a Martini instead of some complicated cocktail.

J: Oh, yes, 100 percent.

G: It’s impossible to get in, but let’s say I could get into Via Carota, going to Via Carota instead of going to whatever the new place is, because you know Via Carota is going to be good, always. Again, you have to line up at 3 p.m., so, fine.

J: I’m actually never going there, but I get that.

G: The thing is, because I have now gone a couple of times whenever I’ve had a day free where I literally line up. It is just so good.

J: No, it’s really good. I’ve only gone once, and we got in line at 5 p.m., and they were like, “The table will be ready at 10 p.m.” I was like, “F*ck it.” We went and saw “Judy” in theaters and then came back and then discussed Renée while we had Cacio e Pepe.

G: The salad. For instance, there’s this place close to my apartment that’s a cash-only red sauce Italian joint that is-

J: Noodle Pudding?

G: Yes.

J: Sorry, I’m outing your home.

G: No. It is my dream.

J: No, Noodle Pudding is stunning.

G: I’m having dinner there with my friend this Thursday, and it’s our second time in two months.

J: I don’t think I’ve been post-pan, and I think I need to go.

G: It’s a dream.

J: It’s cheap.

G: Listen, the thing is none of these things are as cheap as you want them to be. You go in being like, “Yay, I’m having a cheaper meal rather than going to I Sodi, but actually, it’s not that cheap.” That, I love. In terms of bars close to my apartment, I love Long Island Bar.

J: The best.

G: So consistent, you know what you’re getting.

J: Do you ever go to Colonie?

G: Oh, my God, we went to Colonie.

J: I adore Colonie.

G: Where did I go recently? My aunt was visiting in her 60s, and we just went-

J: That’s a good aunt .

G: Yes. It was really great. Had some pasta. Have you ever been to Nabila’s?

J: No.

G: It’s very new and it’s Lebanese. It’s this guy and his mom, I believe, started it. You order at a — not a bar, but you order at a-

J: Counter?

G: At a counter. Thank you. They have big pots and casseroles and stuff, and they serve you that. It’s delicious. It’s in the Cobble Hill area. I’m trying to think where else. Oh, my God, I’m literally going to look at my notes.

J: Yes, please. The fact that you took notes for this is very funny.

G: Oh, have you been to Chambers?

J: No.

G: It’s in Tribeca. I went there recently and gratefully did not have to be the one to pay for it. I had one of the best duck dishes I’ve ever had in my entire life.

J: Those can really go either way, so that’s exciting.

G: Allegedly, it has the best wine list in all of New York.

J: So, what does that mean? It’s so broad. Do you know what I mean? Is it the biggest?

G: To me, it means that you can truly describe what you want and they will bring you a perfect wine, and it’ll be the best wine you’ve ever — as someone who’s-

J: Interesting. Was the wine good?

G: Yes, it was really good.

J: How much did the ticket come to at the end?

G: I do not remember because, once again, I was not paying. I will say that the glasses of wine, there were some glasses as little as $9, $10 which is not bad.

J: I would have expected the cheapest glass to be $17, because they have a nice place in Tribeca.

G: Which I was like, “Oh, this is nice.” In terms of other restaurants that I’m — really for special occasions if I’m trying to spend, I really like Altro Paradiso. This is a little, not embarrassing but almost pretentious, or something. When I first moved to New York, my friend Jen, actually the one I’m going to Noodle Pudding with, would go to Lucien and one time she saw Chloë Sevigny there. This was when I was 21. I was like, “What? You saw Chloë Sevigny at a restaurant?”

J: Also, Lucien seven years ago was very different than Lucien now.

G: Right. Also, sadly, thank you for thinking I’m 28, but I’m actually old. I truly made a mental note before I was living in New York like, “This is where I should go and I’ll see someone like Chloë Sevigny.” I haven’t been in many years but now it’s almost like a punchline because it’s so scene-y.

J: Have walked by it recently?

G: No, I genuinely haven’t.

J: It’s actually crazy because you can’t walk down the sidewalk because everyone who is there is doing Instagram photo shoots.

G: Really?

J: Katie, do you feel like this is true? If you walk by Lucien on the sidewalk? It’s just constant Instagram photo shoots happening. It’s wild.

G: That is so — In no way do I think I was early to Lucien. I think it’s been popular for many years, but it’s just — I don’t know, it’s very funny that it has this second life as Instagram-popular.

J: I feel like that’s the restaurant version of like, not jumping the shark, because I don’t know what the food at Lucien is like. It might still be fantastic, but the clout of saying you are there or went there is higher than the actual value of the experience of being there.

G: Totally.

J: That is when a restaurant completely pivots in existence, I feel.

G: Totally.

J: I think that can be sad but also good for them. They’re probably making a sh*t ton of money.

G: Where do you stand on the McNally restaurants?

J: The Balthazar’s of the world?

G: Yes.

J: I love an institution. I think that New York institutional restaurants — there’s a value to that. I also think, I’m sorry, a New York institution where the owner is going to psychotically post on Instagram when celebrities act bad, we need to defend that.

G: That’s genius.

J: You need to understand that the James Corden sh*t was some of the best days of my life. Those Instagram posts were sending me to the moon and back. Every single thing about them. That was because also, you have to understand that my first job in New York was where — oh, I don’t normally say this on the podcast. I worked for Danny Meyer for a long time.

G: Oh, wow.

J: Danny doesn’t talk sh*t about any celebrities. That would never happen. There are codes in the computers, the info’s there but it would never get leaked. It’s under lock and key. Seeing the other end of the spectrum where Keith was like, “No, this guy’s an asshole. F*ck him,” or, “He’s acting like an asshole.” That was so transcendent to me.

G: I agree.

J: I think that he’s done some bad sh*t. Keith McNally, he’s posted some bad sh*t online.

G: Oh, yes. He’s BFFs with Woody Allen.

J: That’s the thing.

G: People overuse the word chaotic, but it really is the definition of chaotic.

J: It’s chaotic.

G: You can’t be chaotic without also occasionally saying something insane in a bad way.

J: 100 percent. I do just think those iconic New York restaurants, there’s a value to them. I think that Balthazar has a value and people can be like — I get annoyed when people are like, “The food at Balthazar sucks.” One, I don’t know that that’s true. I think your standard of what you think sucks is probably insane as a New Yorker. Two, it’s also just not about that. You’re allowed to ascribe value to like, “I just want to be in that room.” I just want to say like, “Let’s go to Balthazar.”

G: The food is passable, by the way.

J: By any other city standards, it’s fantastic. To call it passable is so crazy.

G: Totally. Of course. By the way, it’s much better than an overhyped new restaurant in some hotel building in Ridgewood or something.

J: 100 percent. I think that we need to defend the chaos. I think that a lot of the new chicer ones, they can be fun, but there is a sterility to them. I do sometimes crave the messiness of old-school restaurants.

G: Totally. I went to this — oh, by the way, this all sounds like I go to a fancy restaurant every night, it’s truly for special occasions. For a birthday or an anniversary or something, we went to Misi, which is from the Lilia people. Obviously, some of the best food we’ve ever had. It’s like transcendent pasta or whatever. Then you are very aware of the fact that you are in a space that looks like a hotel lobby that could be in any city.

J: 100 percent.

G: That’s a little bit of a bummer, but again, the food is so incredibly good.

J: Did you ever eat at the old Union Square Cafe before it moved?

G: No.

J: The original Union Square Cafe had that to me where it was like, it felt like you were eating in a time capsule. It looked so ’90s inside but not like — a kind of ’90s that you forgot about, really white walls with these weird watercolor paintings, and the servers all wore muted pastel button-ups. It just looked so — and it was like walking into, oh, you are seeing a restaurant that changed this neighborhood. There was something really magical about that. I remember that significantly more than the food and that’s not a knock against the restaurant. It’s like, I just think there’s huge value in that.

G: Oh, 100 percent.

J: The experience of that.

G: I’ve only been to Bemelmans once in my life, and I literally have no idea what I ordered or ate, but I remember the space so well. I’m like, “Wow.” It really felt like I was in a movie or something.

J: Yes. The more I’m into restaurants, the more — I’m doing this podcast for a long time. I worked in restaurants for a long time. The food and the wine and the cocktails have to be good. I, at this point, do just deeply believe there’s actually a pretty low ceiling to how good they can be.

G: Totally.

J: Then at some point, we’re just putting on more and more makeup and jewelry. I’m like, “What is something that’s like —” It needs to be a lot more than that. It’s like the restaurants I deeply, deeply love, the food is fantastic. The reason I love it, it’s so much more about the staff in the room. I feel like my go-to reference is Bernie’s, that’s one of the restaurants I go to the most and the food is fantastic. The drinks are fantastic. One, I’m getting a gin Martini. A gin Martini can only be so good. Do you know what I mean? It just needs to be cold and dry. They’re not doing anything to it that makes it that different. It’s just well made, but the people who are making it, the way they make you feel, the room, the vibe, that all — and I just think that is so much more the nebulous thing that you can’t actually codify.

G: Totally. I think there’s just like — I can already feel, and I think it’s been happening for a while, a backlash against the overly precious foodie, molecular gastronomy.

J: I feel like that’s over.

G: The molecular gastronomy of it all, I feel like has been over for a while, but any preciousness. I feel especially mid — I keep wanting to say post-pandemic, and I know I’m not supposed to say that, but everyone knows what I mean.

J: Well, post-lockdown.

G: Just so everyone knows, George is not vaccinated.

J: I’m not vaccinated. I don’t think Covid is real. I refuse to vote.

G: He said that gay men deserve monkeypox.

J: Yes.

G: Which, by the way, came from — I don’t even know what I’m — I feel so insane talking about food because I’m very much like a fan on the outside looking in, you know what I mean? I’m very worried that I’m saying something that some real food person is going to be like, “What the hell does he think he’s talking about?

J: No. Food people aren’t real.

G: Yes, I agree. They’re fake.

J: I noticed with all of the ones that I had on this podcast. I think that pretension around food and restaurants is so profoundly lame. It’s so profoundly lame and it’s such bullsh*t because it’s this thing where people will poopoo on something, but all it takes is — and I love her. I’m just using her as an example. If tomorrow, Alison Roman was like, “Actually TGI Fridays is f*cking dope.” It would become cool to go to TGI Fridays.

G: 100 percent.

J: Ironically, in this weird way. There would be one in Dumbo in a week. So much of it is just if the right person gives it the credit and then it becomes a thing. I don’t know. You can all f*ck with a Chili’s but it doesn’t need — I just think that the pretension on food and the branding, it’s all nebulous. In order for this industry of what is cool to keep moving forward, that always has to happen. Something that wasn’t cool has to become cool and something that is cool has to become passe. That’s also I guess is true of — I guess that it’s the machine of culture moves in general. I think because the food gets tied in with health in this way that it then becomes like there’s a science element to it. I feel it’s bullsh*t.

G: What do you feel about — and this is very pseudoscience of me to mark this as a trend, but in my world, I feel like the reaction against the overly precious foodie of it all became this overly ironic almost like Midwestern cuisine that is suddenly everywhere. You look at Patty Ann’s or that place that would serve like Rochester Garbage Plates. You know what I’m talking about?

J: Yes. They just went out of business.

G: I know. Well, RIP. Even bar food I feel has become even more deep fried and whatever. It’s very fascinating to me. It’s almost like a different kind of virtue signaling. It’s like the opposite of the old kind of virtue signaling where you would be signaling how sophisticated you are. Now you’re like, “Look at how of-the-people I am.”

J: I think that there was a thing of like, “Look, you can be in a chic room and eat like “not chic food.”” I do feel like that started with Mimi’s, and Bernie’s, I guess to an extent. I feel like that was a thing that happened and I think we’ve just been seeing the continuation of that. I think with a lot of the trends, it starts from a pure place. I think that the people who opened Brooklyn Hots did genuinely love — I don’t think we’ve entered.

G: Of course.

J: I know you weren’t saying that they weren’t, but it is interesting because they do think we’re approaching the point where the venture capital back places will start to do it.

G: 100 percent.

J: It is the cool thing to do, which makes — I’m always like, “What’s going to be the next thing?” I do think that is currently the thing. I’m going to a restaurant next week that is a 100 percent that, but just started that.

G: What is going to be the next thing?

J: If I had to guess, I feel like it could go back to French classics. Suddenly it’s like very cool to have a Niçoise on the menu. I could see that being a thing because we’re — or country club menus, clubs getting big, not quite deep fried, but having a chicken club, a Turkey club could be very chic to have layered sandwiches.

G: It’s almost like you’re describing Balthazar. It’s a mix of French food and like club sandwiches.

J: I could see that coming back. I could definitely see that coming back because we’re also like — that’s really popular. A lot of chefs I used to work with used to say this, the one thing that will never go out of style, the one thing that will always make money that you can’t — it just will never not be popular is Italian.

G: Oh, interesting.

J: It’s like the infallible cuisine. People will always go out for pasta. I keep on being like, “But have we hit critical mass?” We’ve got Misi, we’ve got Via Carota, we’ve got Anton’s. Anton’s is so good, by the way.

G: I’ve never been to Anton’s.

J: Go to Anton’s. It’s good.

G: Do you know where I’ve never been and I’ve always wanted to go? I Sodi.

J: I’ve never been to I Sodi.

G: Talk about impossible. Anyway. Although now they’re moving into a bigger space.

J: Oh, are they? That’s exciting.

G: Yes, but in six months.

J: We keep on getting cafe spaghetti like Rolo’s. It’s just like we are constantly getting — and they’re constantly becoming popular. I am like, “Damn, they might be right that it is the one that is infallible.” I feel like when I first moved to New York, the big things were really fancy Mexican was getting popular. Cosme was a big thing and-

G: Oh my God. Well, I was going to say something about bleep restaurant, but actually now I can.

J: We’re going to bleep it.

G: I have a very high tolerance not for myself overpaying, but I look at a menu and I know it’s going to make me lose my mind at how expensive it is. I’m not naive. I know everything’s expensive in New York, whatever, but it was the one place where I looked at the prices and what I was being given and I was like, “This is too far.”

J: See, do you know where I feel that way about, and you’re going to have to bleep this too, Katie, I feel that way about-

G: Really?

J: I’m sorry, but the layout of the menu with all the veggies at the top, and it’s like they’re all $20 and you’re supposed to order four of them before you get pasta. That one, that’s the one. I spend viciously too much of my income on restaurants. I am not approaching this with a cheaply minded — but I also used to work in Italian restaurants. That’s the one where I’m like, “This is crazy.” You know what? I am in the wrong because they’re making money. People are going, so clearly if you’re setting the price point there and people are doing it, you’re not doing anything wrong. It’s working. Just that is not the price point I’m going to spend on that.

G: Totally. No, I think that’s fair. Again, with Italian, I’m going back to my favorite restaurant Noodle Pudding. I’m like, yes, there are places that have better Cacio e Pepe, but I’m like, “You’re still getting pretty good pasta at Noodle pudding.”

J: No, it was great, and the vibe of that is so fun. We are at time to wrap up. Wow. That went by truly so fast.

G: Incredible.

J: The final segment of the podcast, the only true segment I guess, is if you would like, we can plan a night out together.

G: Oh my god. Let’s. Am I planning — and now do I describe .

J: Collaboratively, you and I plan a night out together. What would you like to do?

G: Neighborhood. What are we thinking?

J: I’m in Clinton Hill.

G: Oh, you’re in Clinton Hill?

J: I’m in Clinton Hill.

G: Oh, I somehow thought you were North Brooklyn because I think of you as part of the Williamsburg-

J: There’s a chance you’ve been to my apartment before. Do you know who my roommate is?

G: Who?

J: Andrew Spina.

G: Oh, I did know that, but I have not been to that apartment and now it’s all clicking. Okay, great.

J: That’s where I live. I live right over by — come on, everybody. My other roommate is — I live with both of them.

G: Right.

J: You’re friends with Andrew.

G: Well, something we haven’t touched upon is gay bars and Julius is to me my happiest place.

J: Wait, yes, we missed this hugely because Julius is one of my favorite bars.

G: That’s where we’re starting?

J: Yes, 100 percent. Do you want to eat there?

G: Here’s the thing, yes. Sam and I talk about this all the time, getting a burger/mozzarella sticks/chicken tenders at Julius and a well tequila soda is in many ways my ideal meal.

J: The last time I did it, we went there for dinner after we saw Kate. We walked over, it was me and Andrew and we got burgers and we split chicken tenders and mozzarella sticks and we had Martinis and actually it was one of the best nights of my life.

G: Honestly, that is our night.

J: I’m down. Let’s do it.

G: Yes. I could add another stop to it, but ultimately that is where I want to be all the time.

J: No, it’s the most magical place in New York City.

G: All right, I’ll see you there.

J: Okay, perfect. Thanks for joining the show.

G: Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to Going Out With Jake Cornell. If you could please go and review us on whatever you’re listening to this on, that would be really gorgeous for me in a huge way, so thank you.

Now, for some credits. Going Out With Jake Cornell is recorded in New York City and produced by Keith Beavers and Katie Brown. The music you’re hearing is by Darby Cicci. The cover art you’re probably looking at was photographed by M Cooper and designed by Danielle Grinberg. A special shout-out to VinePair co-founders Josh Malin and Adam Teeter for making all of this possible.