As the Covid-19 crisis continues, drinking has become an entirely at-home affair. While some might take this time to tackle complex projects or order to-go cocktails from a local bar, others are opting for so-called “simple” beer, wines, or cocktails. Yet what exactly does that term mean? Is calling a beverage “simple” an insult, or merely an accurate description? Is taking pleasure in simplicity good or bad?

That’s the topic on this week’s VinePair podcast, where Adam, Erica, and Zach discuss these questions and try to figure out what exactly makes for a simple drink in these very un-simple times.

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Adam: From my apartment in Brooklyn, NY, I’m Adam Teeter.

Erica: From my apartment in Jersey City, I’m Erica Duecy.

Zach: And in my house in Seattle, Washington, I’m Zach Geballe.

A: And this is the VinePair podcast and Zach you’re in a basement.

Z: That’s true.

A: You’re in a basement.

Z: Well, I am not below ground. I am just on a ground-floor, relatively dark space with a poster of Godzilla.

A: Do you have a basement?

Z: No, ok, so this is really funny. So, my wife who’s from Wisconsin is constantly amazed at how rare it is to find houses with basements in the Northwest, on the West Coast really in general. And I will be totally honest, any explanation I would give for that is gonna be largely, you know, conjectural or possibly made up, but there’s an issue like with in terms of getting earthquake insurance, which is obviously a consideration for a lot of the West Coast. If you have a basement, I guess for some reason that’s considered more dangerous or whatever, or actually not really more dangerous to people it’s really just about how likely it is that your house will collapse and the insurance company will have to give you a lot of money. So they won’t insure you or you have a much higher premium if you have a basement. And I also think, like here at least in the Pacific Northwest, it’s so wet, like my dad actually has a basement in his house and it has flooded…I don’t even know how many times over the years. And so it’s just kinda like you either can have like an unfinished kind of basement slash occasional wading pool or you cannot. So we do not.

A: I guess I’d always had the understanding that the reason so much good indie rock came out of Portland was because like everyone had a basement and they could just go hang in each other’s basements and make music. But maybe that was just like a romantic idea that actually wasn’t true. It was just like what us music industry people used to say.

Z: I just assume it’s like, just in general you can’t go outside for much of the…for most of the winter so you have nothing to do but play music, so like you know you just kinda end up cooped up and playing music and you know probably driving your family and friends crazy. Which is why…so it’s like the Pacific Northwest we’re already quasi used to quarantine ’cause its so rainy for a lot of the year so…

A: Yeah, I wonder if some good music is gonna come out of this whole thing?

E: That’s why there’s a lot of coffee shops there too.

Z: That’s for sure.

E: People just need to keep on going through the really rainy, cruddy times so…when I was growing up in Seattle I remember, a lot of coffee and a lot of rec rooms. The rec rooms with the shag carpeting, that was pretty big. With some spare instruments in there for sure.

A: So how are you both doing?

Z: Good, good. I mean hanging in there, you know? I think every…some days are good, some days are bad, it’s a little tough. I mean I have to say that these creative projects we’ve been doing with cocktails and kind of playing around with some of the cocktail templates and ideas have kinda kept me feeling like I have a bit of a creative outlet. This week I was playing with a martini. So some people love their martinis really dry and some people like them the classic ratio so two-to-one gin to vermouth. But I’ve been experimenting with a 50-50, so that’s…you know, 50% gin and 50% vermouth. I’ve been playing with this Freeland Spirits, some women distillers in Portland, really amazing gin. It’s a kind of a black pepper, more savory, some coriander character. And I’ve been pairing that with a Dolin Dry and then doing a little bit of olive brine, so with a twist and an olive and I gotta say that has been helping me through some of the tougher days here.

A: That’s interesting. You know I’ve had the 50-50 a few times, I haven’t gotten into it yet. I find it to be quite a wet cocktail. And I feel like sometimes the vermouth can overpower the gin. But I know it’s like a lot of people are really into it ’cause it is lower alc and you can have more than one of them which is not a bad thing in these times.

E: This is true and I’m with Zach. Zach last week you were talking about some….like making kind of a long drink. So vermouth as the base and then some soda water, maybe even sparkling wine as a splash in there and that’s something that I really like as well. I’m just a big fan of vermouth. I always have been. I’ve been writing about vermouth for like years and years and years, I’ve just always loved it.

A: And Zach, what about you man?

Z: Well so I’ve had my one little bit of cocktail experimentation myself, which has been…since I like everyone else have lots of canned things lying around including chickpeas or garbanzo beans however you prefer. I had heard for years that you could take the liquid from your can of chickpeas, which is called aquafaba and use it as an egg white replacement in cocktails. And so I’ve been again kind of like, well might as well try it out now is a great time, I’ve got cans of chickpeas – my son is obsessed with them right now – and also time. And so I have to say I think I…I’m still nowhere near mastering the technique, I feel like the shake is a little different than with an egg white. Or at least I’m not getting the kind of results that I was hoping for. It’s also really interesting cause there’s definitely a flavor that it imparts to the cocktail and I think you…it means that you have to be a little more kind of thoughtful about when and where you deploy something like aquafaba as an emulsifier in your cocktail, as opposed to egg whites which are…also have a flavor but I think is a little more neutral and I think is a little easier to pair with a lot of different cocktails. So found really interestingly that it does really….it does well with sort of savory cocktail elements, so it does reasonably well with gin, it does reasonably well with the bitter side of Amari and other things. It doesn’t do well with sweetness though, has been my experience. You get a weird to me, kind of like sweet and salty, but not in a like….a like that combo…but it just, I haven’t found a combo that works as well with some brown spirits. I’m gonna try this evening I think something with rum, or something in that vein to see if that kind of slightly different side of sweet works better. I don’t know, I’m still kind of figuring it out. But I’ve been playing around with it cause…what else am I gonna do?

A: Yeah. I mean I….It’s funny I actually wrote about it in a column recently for the site. In the Ask Adam column. I find it to be…..it never foams in the way that I want it to, in the way that egg whites do. It doesn’t get that really beautifully dense and sort of like luscious sort of foam in the cocktail. And I think you’re right there’s a, there is a….I mean there’s also a smell with the egg white but not in an off-putting way. Like I’ve actually found that like the aquafaba can have this really weird smell to it that like, is very odd in the cocktail. So I’ve basically come to terms with like….you should only use it if you’re a vegan. Right? Like if you’re a vegan and you are really interested in still having like a classic you know, whiskey sour or something like that, right? Then go all in on the aquafaba. But if you’re not…you should probably stick to the egg white. That’s been my general conclusion. ‘Cause it is….it’s an odd ingredient. That I know we all like because it can be that substitute. But like it just doesn’t do for me the same thing that I think egg whites can do.

Z: Yeah that’s been my experience, yeah.

A: Well, let’s jump into today’s topic. So we decided that, I mean this week we’re sort of talking about the ides of simple drinks. So basically, we’ve been chatting about this offline but there have been a lot of people saying that like they’ve been returning to the idea of simple drinks, right? So like, drinks they don’t have to think too much about, drinks that just sort of are there to comfort them. And so, my sort of challenge to us today is like, what is a simple drink? Is there anything as a simple drink? Right? And is it actually an insult to call a drink simple? So I’ll start off by saying there isn’t such a thing as a simple drink. There can be a simple drink in terms of a drink that’s simple to make. But in my mind calling a drink simple is kind of an insult. So like what makes one drink….so what, I’m supposed to say that like oh, Pais is so simple, it’s so easy to understand because it’s just bright and refreshing or Gamay, if you will, or something you can see people say that a lot. But that, oh you know, Barolo or Bordeaux, those are complex wines. Those are wines that you really have to think about. I would argue that you think about all the wines that you drink. I would argue that you think about all the cocktails that you drink. Even when I’m drinking like a Modelo, I’m still thinking like “damn this is refreshing” and its simple in the fact that that’s what I wanted right now but I think there’s this weird idea that like, some drinks are then….at least the way that I hear the term utilized, that drinks are simple and therefore more basic. What do you guys think?

E: Yeah, I mean, I think you know…when I’m thinking of a simple drink I’m thinking of something that’s like a base spirit and a few simple mixers or modifiers. So I’m generally thinking like, you know, it’s something that I probably have in my pantry at home. It’s maybe one of the easy templates like a sour, or a high ball or like an old fashioned. Something that I can make myself but that when I’m going to a cocktail bar, I actually generally am not ordering those type of, what I would consider simpler drinks, because I want to see what a bartender can do and I’m excited about kinda the barrel aged you know thing that they’ve got going on or maybe they’ve got some like unusual liquors that I maybe wouldn’t have access to. So I can see, in that way, when I’m thinking of simple I’m thinking of like it’s something that I can make at home, it’s pretty easy. But I do see that it could be you know, a knock against a lot of things. I mean for…I think for example you could consider hard seltzer to be simple. And the way that I’d think about it in that usage is: it’s kind of an alcohol delivery system, right? It’s like, it’s kind of non-offensive, it maybe doesn’t taste so….you know, like it’s not something that you’re going to be drinking necessarily for the flavor but just ’cause you want something easy that’ll give you a buzz and probably doesn’t have that many calories. So that’s kind of what I’m thinking of when I’m thinking of like a simple drink.

Z: Yeah, I think it’s important to kind of differentiate here the difference between simple as a description for what goes into making the drink itself and simple in terms of the experience of drinking it, if that makes sense. So a gin and tonic is a functionally simple drink, you put gin in a glass, you put tonic in a glass, you maybe put a lime wedge in a glass, you put some ice in there. You know, it’s a drink that pretty much anyone can make and therefore on sort of one level it’s very simple. That said, you know understanding the flavors going on in a gin and tonic with a complex gin, a well-made tonic, that’s the opposite of a simple drink, there’s a lot of complexity there. So I think part of it is just, and I come across this a lot in wine in general, that the English language is unfortunately imprecise when it comes to describing the things we want to describe and so we use the term simple to mean a lot of different things. In this case I think the use of the term does kind of create a lot of confusion. So I will say that I am very much with Erica on the side of you know simple as a descriptor for what goes into making the drink as being something that yeah, that….

A: Right, but guys that’s not what I’m saying. I think you guys are misunderstanding me. So, I’ve already said at the beginning of my comments that I’m not talking about drinks being simple in terms of simple ingredients. The way I’m seeing it used by a lot of professionals is simple in terms of I don’t have to think. So that’s where I’m having issues with the term. So my issue with the term has nothing to do with saying that like this was a simple wine because, I don’t know, it has one varietal in it. Or this was a simple cocktail because it’s a two-ingredient cocktail. My issue is that I’m seeing lots of people saying they want to go back to simple drinks they don’t have to think about and that I think is where I’m having…. where I think there’s… it’s kind of bullshit, right? That’s sort of where I was hoping to drive the conversation was like, are there drinks out there that you guys actually believe you don’t have to think about? That are truly just alcohol delivery systems? Because if you believe that then you could basically say that like, I don’t know, a lot of the stuff we talk about like seltzer, etc. is…is void. Right? Because those are “simple” drinks to a lot of people. Those are drinks….or Modelo or certain wines that you don’t age for very long and are refreshing. Or certain like, swizzle cocktails, right? I would argue that you think about all of those so therefore they are not simple. But the, I mean but…again like that’s just my opinion.

E: Well, I’m just wondering if people are using “simple” to think more along the lines of “easy-drinking, crowd-pleaser,” sort of cocktails. I’ve seen this debate happening on Instagram too where I’ve seen some bartenders saying, hey bartenders out there, like I see you doing a lot of simple drinks and like show some complexity here. But my argument to that would be, that people don’t have those ingredients, you know bartenders who are giving “simple” drinks are doing it out of service to…you know, to people who have probably not a lot of stuff in their home bars. But I’m wondering if it’s just another term that’s being used to convey, like you know, you mentioned Gamay and Pais, those are pretty like crowd-pleasing, easy to drink, like you know you’d have ‘em at a backyard or on a rooftop and you wouldn’t have to really have much conversation about it. So I’m thinking it’s more being used in terms of that context.

Z: Well I think it’s instructive to think about, you know food in some cases. And I don’t think any of us would argue that some foods are I guess simpler in that they, again, don’t necessarily require or even merit a whole lot of thought when you’re eating them. Like I really love when I go to a cocktail party and this is super simple, I really like shrimp cocktail. But I would never call a shrimp cocktail like the dish that is going to make you think twice about, I don’t know, shellfish or cocktail sauce or something and similarly…

A: Maybe! It might be your first time and you’re like “wow, this stuff is delicious!”

Z: Sure! But I mean I guess that’s my point is like, when I think…when I use the term simple to describe something like a wine or a cocktail in the sort of taste side, I would be talking about something with relatively limited complexity and in that I mean there’s not necessarily a lot of flavors, there’s not a lot of you know, over the course of the time that you are drinking it…whether that’s the amount of time that you from when you out the drink in your mouth to when you swallow it or finish tasting it or from when you open the bottle to when you finish the bottle or whatever, there’s not much that happens. That what you taste on that first initial sip is gonna be what you’re gonna taste in every subsequent sip and that what you taste at the beginning of the sip is what you’re gonna taste when you finish. And that’s not a….none of that is bad. I think that’s what’s important here. But it is meaningful to say that a wine has….or a cocktail or a beer is simple or straightforward or has relatively limited complexity because some wines, cocktails and beers don’t, and those….to say that you prefer one or the other is again, not necessarily a statement of absolute value, it’s just to note that if you open a bottle….to compare your bottle of relatively straightforward Beaujolais to say even a Cru Beaujolais or from there you know Barolo, Barbaresco, you know Burgundy whatever comparison you wanna use of a complex wine, it is a fundamentally different experience to drink those two things. And it’s not to say one is better or worse, there are times when I want both of those things. But they are different, and I think that we sometimes get to this place in drinks and I think there’s good intention behind this but it can be a little over the top which is like, we don’t wanna tell anyone that anything they like isn’t the greatest. And that’s fine and I don’t wanna tell people what they should and shouldn’t drink, I think that’s a really noble thing to consider is to not make someone feel bad for liking what they like, but it is ok to say there are differences in these things, that these two things are not the same. That they have different qualities. In the same way that we wouldn’t claim that an IPA and a Pilsner taste the same, they are different, and that doesn’t mean that one is lighter and one is more full-bodied, that one is better and one is worse, they might be preferable at different times. And same too with simple or complex drinks. Sometimes you want a beer, a wine, a cocktail that’s going to really make you think, that has a lot of flavor that might develop over time. And sometimes you just wanna have something in your glass that you can taste and enjoy, you like the way it tastes and you know that every sip, every can, every bottle, every whatever is gonna taste the same, and that’s cool too.

A: But see….but here’s the problem. So first of all, the two beers you used as examples are both aren’t simple beers but if you were to say to a brewer, “This lager is simple” they’d lose their shit on you. Right? Or if you were to say to a winemaker “Oh I love this wine, it’s really simple” they would lose their shit. Right? So…

Z: I don’t know that that’s true!

A: Have you ever sat down with a winemaker and said to a winemaker that you thought their wine was simple cause I guarantee you haven’t.

Z: I’ve had winemakers tell me that their wine is simple ’cause that’s what they’re trying to make. They know that….yeah if someone is trying to sell you a $200 bottle of wine and they say….and you say “oh, this is a pretty simple wine” they’re gonna be pissed. But there’s a place in the world…people who are making wine that sells for $10, $12, $15 dollars a bottle, many of them know that what they’re making is something that offers, you know, not the most complexity and that’s not what they’re trying to do because they know there’s a huge market for wine that people can just taste and enjoy and appreciate and it isn’t gonna necessarily be this thing that people are gonna age or that they’re gonna, you know, sit and sort of pontificate about, it’s just wine that people like. And there’s lots of winemakers who are super happy to be making that, they’re not….not every single person gets into this for some sort of grand ego-stroking, “you must venerate me and tell me that everything I make is the greatest thing ever,” some of them are happy to make straightforward, simple, easy-to- appreciate beer, wine, whatever.

A: I mean, I’m interested to hear what Erica has to say here because in my experience I’ve never had a winemaker tell me their wine was simple, even when their wine was an $8 to $10 dollar retail bottle or a beer. They always think their wine still has complexity or their beer has complexity because they were involved in making it, they were involved in….it’s like, I don’t know, the way I think about it with any of these alcohol products, right? And the person that produces it, or an artist – you tell them that their art is simple or a writer, you tell them their writing is simple. It’s like, could you imagine going to a parent and telling them you thought that their child was simple? I mean they’ve been involved in making it this entire time like I am shocked that someone has said that to you because if I knew of a parent that walked in and was like “yeah, my kid’s pretty simple,” I’d be like wow! OK.

E: Yeah…

A: Just because it’s…that’s my issue with the word. The word I think is seen by most people as an insult. I don’t necessarily 100% agree with it but that’s why I wanted to have the discussion because like it is this word that a lot of people use to insult different drinks.

E: I mean, I think if you look at tasting notes, right? If you look at a winery’s tasting notes and it’s something like a bottle that is retailing for under $10 dollars I think you can pick that up from the tasting notes. So even from a brand like what they’re saying, they’re saying….sometimes they’ll use terms in their marketing that’s like “Cheap and cheerful” or like “crowd pleaser” or like “porch pounder” or those sorts of things. And when they’re describing the wine as “fruity” and it’s not telling you is it red fruit or black fruit or you know what types of citrus, I mean they know it’s kind of fruity and it may be like dry or off-dry, I think when they’re using pretty vague descriptors they’re getting at the idea that it’s not super specific or complex and it’s gonna be a crowd pleaser that you’ll be able to take to a potluck and feel fine about. So I think in that way it’s fine to call, I would say I think it’s fine to call certain wines or certain cocktails simple in that I wouldn’t necessarily take it as an insult. And I think if I were a winemaker who was making a lot of more commercially oriented wines and I knew that they were really kind of on the low to middle shelf of the grocery store I….you know, maybe that’s one end of a range of wines that I’m making but then at the top of the shelf you’ve got those more expensive wines that are going to yield much more and develop in the glass and like have much more of a expression and sort of story that they’re telling in the bottle. But some wines are just not that way and some beers are not that way and some cocktails are not that way. I think it’s….you know, they each have kind of a different utility and there’s a utility in simple.

A: OK. I can see that. Zach, what do you think?

Z: Well so I think there’s two things going on here, one is that there’s no doubt that most winemakers, most I’m sure brewers, distillers, etc. you know they think about all that goes into making a product, and if they’re making something that has you know, a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of you know their own interest and investment and passion that goes into it then of course yes, they’re not necessarily going to look at their process of making whatever it is that they’re making as simple, it’s involved in a lot of ways. But a lot of them are also, you know, they understand, the good ones certainly you know understand that there is a range of….and again, I wanna divorce this part of the conversation from a discussion of quality cause I don’t necessarily think that’s totally fair because I think some of the wines and beers and cocktails that I’ve loved a lot are not necessarily things I would describe as complex. Sometimes simple is really a delightful thing. In the same way it is with food or even with you know entertainment or whatever. And…so I think that there’s…on the one hand you’re right. Producers generally do not like to downplay what they do, some of them are kind of overly humble, but a lot of them you know are going to take credit for the work they do. But it doesn’t mean that those of us who are not producers can’t be honest with ourselves and with our audience and say, ok well yeah every single person who makes a bottle of wine thinks their bottle of wine is good but they’re not all good like that’s just the honest truth. And every single person might think that what they’re doing and not all of it is. And that’s OK and it doesn’t mean that the non-complex wines are bad, I want to reiterate that point, but it also means that we have to be honest and we have to step away from what the producer is gonna tell us and use our own judgment. And we have to be able to taste and discern and discuss and we do that and that’s where the sort of analysis that we provide has to matter. Because if it was just a matter of what the PR firm or the marketing arm of the winery puts on the label, well then everyone is fucked, like no one… they’re all gonna claim their wine is the greatest ’cause that’s what marketing is. And our job is to separate, you know to sort through all that and to say OK, you know they might tell you that but here is what our considered presumably unbiased opinion is, and it maybe that wine X is more complex than wine Y and if that matters to you then maybe you should buy wine X and not wine Y and if it doesn’t matter to you then buy whatever you want. Or if wine X is twice as much maybe the complexity doesn’t matter as much to you and that’s totally fine too. Again, I’m not here telling people what they should or shouldn’t value in wine or beer or spirits, it’s just there are differences and it’s important to note them.

A: So, in your day-to-day life, do you drink more simple wine or more complex wine, Zach?

Z: That’s a really good question. I really….I find that I really vacillate, like last night, I opened a very I think a relatively straightforward bottle of Cotes du Rhone because we were making hamburgers and that’s a wine I love with that. And I wouldn’t want a more complex wine with burgers ’cause I don’t think it really makes sense. I wanna be able to kind of have something that is gonna go with the dish and is gonna be, you know, fun and has that sort of that generic fruitiness that Erica was talking about. But there are other times when yeah, I wanna sit and contemplate. But I’m also, you know, I’m not a good sort of archetype or a good sort of example in this category ’cause I have a wine buying problem and I have like a lot of it and I like to buy complex wines ’cause I like to age wines. But I think that again, even then, oftentimes what I’m in the mood for is something relatively straightforward, you know? If we’re having a glass of wine and we’re going to sit outside on our deck and look at other people from a safe distance, then like sometimes I just want something simple and we have plenty of those bottles around too.

A: Erica?

E: I mean I totally go back and forth. Sometimes I want something with….that’s just refreshing and light, and that might be that vermouth with some soda water and then other times I really want to dive into, you know, an aged wine. Like I had an….even earlier this week I had a 2010 Bordeaux, it was from a…not a really well known estate. And this was a Bordeaux that I got for like 25 bucks so it was not super noteworthy, probably not that many people know about it but it has these really fascinating more gamy sort of characteristics that, you know, I had made this pork roast and I thought well, whatever I’ll open this bottle and it was just so cool like how all of the forest floor notes and all of these more tertiary characteristics of this wine really complemented this roast that I had made. So I think that there’s like context, right? At the end of the day I might be looking for something kind of fruity or light or refreshing but then if I’ve spent time on a meal like maybe I’m looking for something a little more complex.

A: I dig, I dig. So then basically….

Z: What about you Adam? What about you? What are you drinking?

A: I mean right now? Whiskey straight to my face. But um….I mean for the most part….God, I would say on the weekend with like good friends, before the quarantine it was, you know it was dinner party wines. We’d probably start with something a little more simple when people got there and then we would move to a complex wine for dinner. For sure. But I think when we entertain we try to have wines that we want people to think about ’cause I think those are….you know, we’ve sort of become known as the couple that like out of our friends is really into wine and people get to try really cool stuff with us, so like we’ll probably open more complex things when we’re entertaining than we would simple wines if that makes sense. Like when it’s just Naomi and I like then you know….I mean, there’s nothing wrong with like a very delicious you know Beaujolais, or even like some of the rosés that we tried in the rosé roundup. Completely agree. I just, I prefer to usually talk about them as just like….again, not cheap and cheerful but you know like easy-drinking. Just because again like I’ve always been trying to avoid using a word that anyone could take an insult by. Right? So that’s been like….since I got into drinks in general, drinks and food like I’ve always been very conscious of that ’cause I’ve never wanted to be like “Oh…” At our book club, for example, like a lot of people bring wines that are easier, right? But if I was like “Oh, I love this wine. It’s a really nice, simple wine” I know the person I say that will take offense to it. Even though everything you guys are saying is completely valid, there are these words in our vocabulary that people just find to be insulting. Whether they’re meant that way or not. Like we can completely mean them positively, it’s just the person on the other side the only interpretation they can hear is like the idea, associated with like this word of like being a simpleton or being…..and that’s never been a very positive word to most people. So I try to avoid them. But like, you know, I do like wines that are easier to drink, more often than not because I’m thinking about way too much shit every day and like I don’t want to sit and fucking double decant a wine and then you know, slowly drink through it and contemplate it every night. That’s just not what I want to do. I want something that’s delicious and will help me take the edge off and I can enjoy with my partner and not worry about, you know, having to dissect if I can get the specific terroir the fucking vine was grown in or take 25 steps to make a cocktail. You know? Which is why I like Negronis. Like to me Negronis are a very complex yet simple cocktail, because they’re very simple to make. So yeah, I guess that’s how I’d go down in a nutshell.

E: Yeah, and I think you know, thinking back to conversations that I’ve had with winemaker friends, I think one thing that I do hear them say a lot about their wines that are at the under let’s say $10-$12 level is, I hear them describe them to me as solid. These are really solid wines. These provide a great value at the price point. So I think when they are thinking about their wines, it is different – to your point about the marketing department kind of positions them as like the cheap and cheerful and all of that, but they, I think they are thinking about them in terms of the relative value in a certain category and then trying to make the best maybe fullest flavored, or kind of most…that delivers the most of something, whatever that goal is, to the customer in that price point. So I do think that they’re thinking about, maybe not in terms of simple but in terms of what’s the best value, what’s the best wine we can produce given that we’re trying to hit a $10 price point.

A: Totally agreed. Guys this was a fun discussion. We haven’t gotten to have like a good little debate in a few weeks given all the Covid shit, so this was fun. So yeah guys, thanks again for listening to everyone out there. If you enjoy the podcast drop us a line, give us a review, give us a star rating on iTunes, Stitcher, wherever you get your podcasts and Zach and Erica please stay safe. Continue to drink complex or simple wines, whatever you prefer, and cocktails and beer and I’ll see you both here next week.

Z: Sounds great.

E: See you then.

A: Thanks so much for listening to the VinePair podcast, if you enjoy listening to us every week please leave us a review or rating on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever it is you get your podcasts, it really helps everyone else discover the show. And now for the credits:

VinePair is produced and hosted by Zach Geballe, Erica Duecy and me: Adam Teeter. Our engineer is Nick Patri and Keith Beavers. I’d also like to give a special shout out to my VinePair co-founder Josh Malin and the rest of the VinePair team for their support. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll see you again right here next week.